Dark knight, the past, the present and the future of the job.

[bundythenoob]

DRK is never going to be "fixed." SE has moved DRK away from its HW iteration and StB iteration to this new ShB iteration. We can complain all we want, but SE is not going to adjust DRK to be like any previous iteration.

DRK ShB will be the new norm for now on. 6.0 DRK will be using ShB DRK as a base.



SE is satisfied with tanks right now. ShB tank iterations are meeting what metrics SE has for tanks. Now it is just maintenance of whatever subs are left, which will more-than-likely be playing DPS and not tanks.

I have a ton of mixed thoughts on this subject. While I do miss the hell out of STB DRK, and while I would love nothing more than for DRK to return to its former glory, I don't quite dislike the idea that SHB DRK is the new shell moving forward because I do see the appeal for new DRK players, and i do think the new version COULD HAVE BEEN a more accessible version. I DO however, have a major problem with the execution of the current SHB DRK. namely a few things:

-Why do we not get stalwart at 40 like the other tanks? why not nerf edge/flood at the lower levels to accommodate this new amazing skill? PLD got a new lv 40 aoe, so why not use that "job homogenisation" to benefit DRK?
-Why did they nerf our mana regeneration abilities in favour of mana regen ticks? why not allow us to build our own resource at a faster pace and give power back to the player?
-Why nerf abyssal drain? it could have been rebalanced and kept as am alternate spender to give us some variance in our mana usage, instead of just edge/flood for 40 levels until we get TBN.
-Why nerf Salted Earth? it was a great skill and a nice source of blood/damage. now it has no interaction and serves as a mediocre source of damage in comparison to its older version. even if its dmg was nerfed it should have kept the blood generation. they could even have combined Sole Survivor with it to allow it to give us some resource every 90 secs.
-Why does Dark Arts not have more interaction with our kit, given its now effectively on a 15+ sec cooldown due to new proc mechanic? they could easily re implement it with the current kit, empowering our decision making while restoring job identity.
-Why did they ruin the interaction between blood and mana by """reworking""" delirium? why didn't they just make Living shadow the burst window, which would allow the new lv 80 skill to shine brightly? instead they ruined a great set of abilities that promoted good decision making while interacting in a meaningful way with the rest of the kit?
-Why didn't they repurpose Power Slash into something useful? maybe give us back the scourge DOT to upkeep with our rotation, or even make it so that Dark Arts transforms Souleater into Power Slash for a big hit + dot instead of a lifesteal?


there could have been so much more done to make SHB DRK a more accessible version of STB DRK, while still keeping the identity of the job intact.
-Darkside should have locked us out of mana regen ticks, thus allowing our abilities to do the majority of mana building, but now its just a glorified 10% dmg buff (which I believe only holds back the design due to Square's self imposed tank job damage limitations).
-the problem of Dark Arts spam would have been mostly solved by reintroducing it with the proc based TBN version, thus allowing it to shine in important decision making once again without being spammy, just like in Heavensward.
-the addition of edge/flood would have worked similar to old Dark Arts by helping us to learn how to build and spend while adding new flavour, but their high potencies don't allow our mana generation abilities to be too strong, otherwise they cause too much damage output in lower level content. why not nerf them to give back power to other parts of the kit?
-stalwart is a nice aoe addition that helps the job build more resource since blood price was removed and CnS/BW mana generation was nerfed significantly, its just too bad stalwart doesn't get added till lv 72, (which by then you've already gone through like 90% of the game's content) so new DRKs do not get a chance to learn how to integrate it to their rotation by lv 40 like the other jobs.

but hey all tanks are balanced, so we should be happy! ..right?

[shao32]

If you look at old thread people ask for Hakakure that give an equal kenki back but dev decide to annoy people by just give us the inferior version that give less kenki instead. The kenki Hagakure give back for sen is what cause the dps loss. In current eden savage tier if you already have 3 sen to cast midare but Jinpu faded then it is better to just Hakaze+Jinpu again and cast Midare instead of starting all over again with no buff and less kenki. You also delay Shoha if you delay Midare. SAM was in the same place if not worse than DRK at 5.0 because it's one of the job that got locked out because low damage. On the other hand DRK only got locked out at that time if no WHM in party.

I'm not saying that right now DRK is better but SAM isn't good as anyone believe.

To make it short and easy to understand : Stormblood's SAM = Fluid, Flexibility more decision eye proc make difference, etc. Shadowbringers SAM's Strict's no flexibility, less decision & boring.

It's like People see SAM and see only Midare, See DRK and only see Bloodspillers.

I mean hagaruke was originally removed from the game and ikishoten was added instead wich is a simplified version that don't consume sen and then harauke was readded bcs they didn't notice without any way to spend sen leads to a clunky unrewarding desing, im not gonna argue if that was a good decision or not nothing far from reality, and to be honest im not sure how optimal is just do 1 umcomplete combo and half compared to use hagaruke with the restof the kit, not really the palce to disscuss that.

what i can say is i played plenty of time with SAM on SB and now do it kite sometimes, it's my dps first choice, and despite the clunky start i feel it's solid now specially after the shoha changes, its more flexive or not? mmm i can tell is still feel it's flexibe for me but not gonna start arguing about that, in the end the main point remains wich is SAM get extensive ajustments on his kit to make it better on his current status compared that jobs that get way more complains and get no ajustment whatsoever like our beloved DRK here.

independent of our opinion of SAM we can agree that they get plenty of love independent of the result?

[cactuarzzzz]

Ok we can put SAM discussion on hold and save it for another time but I'm wondering what the dev who's in charge of tank role been doing in the past year to cause this long stagnant period of DRK? Nothing?

[Xtrasweettea]

That's not need to be true, in HW SE made BRD being a caster and they did a 180º when ppl complaing during all over the expansion, im not gonna argue about this expansion i know SHB has been lost but for 6.0 they can and should change DRK, just bcs they settle it right now that's doesnt mean they are doing it right, the hate for delirium is bigger than dark arts spam.

That is also HW, which back then, SE had a different mind-set. The mind-set is very apparent between the two qualities of the content and jobs between HW and ShB. There seems to have been a shift in mind-set within SE at some point.

As for “not doing it right,” that is your opinion. That may not even be the aggregate opinion of the player-base. Now, I agree with your opinion, but I don’t know what to counteroffer. I am not going to counteroffer anything, as I am not as invested nor skilled enough to provide a counter (ie: casual).

On the other side i know SE cares about DPS more than the other roles thats why every expansion non DPS roles have some big problems of any kind due low invest on them just a sad reality.

That is the sad reality, but it is what it is. Unless the player-base is genuinely interested in playing tanks and healers, and their populations reflect that genuine interest, SE could cater more to tanks and healer.

I have never played an MMO nor any table top game where people were wanting to play tanks or healers. DPS is always the desired role.

[Xtrasweettea]

I have a ton of mixed thoughts on this subject. While I do miss the hell out of STB DRK, and while I would love nothing more than for DRK to return to its former glory, I don't quite dislike the idea that SHB DRK is the new shell moving forward because I do see the appeal for new DRK players, and i do think the new version COULD HAVE BEEN a more accessible version. I DO however, have a major problem with the execution of the current SHB DRK. namely a few things:

I really like your post, so I am going to put my two cents in, but keep this in mind:
1. I am casual, I don’t do savage or ex-trials. For two reasons: a) I am lazy, b) I did 10 years of end-game high content in FFXI… that was enough for me.
2. I am not going to provide any counteroffers. I am not the person to say “yeah, SE should have done this.” You don’t want to balance the game around me. ShB did enough of that.
3. I can state things from my perspective, but don’t take what I say seriously when it comes to balance. Especially on DRK, where I play it just enough to not be rusty.
4. I may skip a few of these, as they are beyond my scope of skill for FF14.

Why do we not get stalwart at 40 like the other tanks? why not nerf edge/flood at the lower levels to accommodate this new amazing skill? PLD got a new lv 40 aoe, so why not use that "job homogenisation" to benefit DRK?

I never understood that myself. Getting Stalwart in the 70s while the other tanks get their second AOE in the 40s doesn’t make sense to me either.

Though, someone at SE thought it was a good idea.

-Why did they nerf our mana regeneration abilities in favour of mana regen ticks? why not allow us to build our own resource at a faster pace and give power back to the player?

Too difficult to execute for super casual players. I am sure you know this, but most of the player-base isn’t very good at the game. I actually had a hard time in HW with the mana issue. I didn’t complain about the mana gimmick. I just played something I could play
.
I didn’t have a hard time in StB, though. I found StB DRK to be rewarding when I was able to keep the mana going and not bottoming out. Though most other people couldn’t.
Even in this expansion, where I never had mana problems on DRK, I keep running into DRKs, even on expert roulette, who bottom out on mana.

--Why nerf abyssal drain? it could have been rebalanced and kept as am alternate spender to give us some variance in our mana usage, instead of just edge/flood for 40 levels until we get TBN.

Probably because it deals damage and heals in one button. The other tank jobs don’t do that without some sort of multi-button combination. Again, this is just my assumption.

- -Why nerf Salted Earth? it was a great skill and a nice source of blood/damage. now it has no interaction and serves as a mediocre source of damage in comparison to its older version. even if its dmg was nerfed it should have kept the blood generation. they could even have combined Sole Survivor with it to allow it to give us some resource every 90 secs.

Why keep it at all, after we lost the interactive pieces to it? I forget to use it sometimes because there is no interactivity with it.

- -Why does Dark Arts not have more interaction with our kit, given its now effectively on a 15+ sec cooldown due to new proc mechanic? they could easily re implement it with the current kit, empowering our decision making while restoring job identity.

It is a Storm’s buff in a fancy package.

I am guessing since we did a lot of comparing in arguments of WAR to DRK in StB, SE just make DRK more like WAR… completely missing the point of the comparisons within those arguments.

-Why didn't they repurpose Power Slash into something useful? maybe give us back the scourge DOT to upkeep with our rotation, or even make it so that Dark Arts transforms Souleater into Power Slash for a big hit + dot instead of a lifesteal?

Wouldn’t that make DRK more like PLD in some way?

They took away Scourge (and ended up giving it to GNB, which GNB will lose next expansion, look forward to it).

I am going to assume that Living Shadow is your “Scourge”. Instead of it being an actual dot, it’s just a pet that attacks with a certain patten within certain intervals.

- there could have been so much more done to make SHB DRK a more accessible version of STB DRK, while still keeping the identity of the job intact.

Right, which instead they chose to make DRK more like WAR in some respects while simplifying most of DRK’s kit.

- but hey all tanks are balanced, so we should be happy! ..right?

Some people are actually happy, or at least content, when it comes to tank balance this expansion. Some of them post in these forums.

I honestly don’t care about “the balance.” We didn’t have “balance” in FFXI. Not all jobs could do all content. If you couldn’t go to an event on X job, you have other jobs to choose from (if they were geared or leveled, of course). Which is realistic.

What is unrealistic is making all jobs to be able to do all high-end content and keep whatever theme they had.

[bundythenoob]

I honestly don’t care about “the balance.” We didn’t have “balance” in FFXI. Not all jobs could do all content. If you couldn’t go to an event on X job, you have other jobs to choose from (if they were geared or leveled, of course). Which is realistic.

What is unrealistic is making all jobs to be able to do all high-end content and keep whatever theme they had.

I'm glad you see what I mean. having most of DRKs unique gameplay kit be gutted as opposed to being made more accessible is what is ruining both DRK and to some extent WAR (because of the blatant gameplay ripoff)

I myself am not some expert prog raider or anything. I play dailies with friends and do EX trials every now and then. I just want to be able to play a fun job that feels challenging and rewarding with time and mastery, which is what drew me originally to DRK (and to SCH). even though the STB version was as you put was more accessible, the SHB version could have been made to be a simpler version to execute without reducing what made the job play like a fast paced builder and spender with moment to moment decision making.

I wouldn't say that your input means nothing just because you are a casual, but if I was being asked, I would say something more along the lines of,
"If a casual like me sees the flaws in balance over job theme, what does that mean for the older players who lived through the era of job theme over balance?"

[Seraphor]

Balance will always be a tightrope walk. Too much balance causes homogeneity, too little balance makes for a messy game environment.
They seem to be swinging more towards too much lately but at some point they'll have to reign it back in.

[shao32]

Ok we can put SAM discussion on hold and save it for another time but I'm wondering what the dev who's in charge of tank role been doing in the past year to cause this long stagnant period of DRK? Nothing?

As far i know there is only 4 guys in the combat dev team and im pretty sure none onf them works on tanks or healers specifically, more like the gather together and dealt with everything every time without none of them dedicating they time to tanks and healers specifically and more like "mmm we have this list of complains, lets see what needs more help *cough DPS cough* and start working"

That is also HW, which back then, SE had a different mind-set. The mind-set is very apparent between the two qualities of the content and jobs between HW and ShB. There seems to have been a shift in mind-set within SE at some point.

As for “not doing it right,” that is your opinion. That may not even be the aggregate opinion of the player-base. Now, I agree with your opinion, but I don’t know what to counteroffer. I am not going to counteroffer anything, as I am not as invested nor skilled enough to provide a counter (ie: casual).

It's obvious they just go in to the oversimplification boat this expansion to get more casuals and dump everything challenging in this game for no reason bcs accesibility, now we barelly have nothing to invest and master skill wise right now but that doesn't excuse them to copy paste WAR gameplay and implement it to DRK betwen other things, besaid they word and actions are not law and they can rectified depending of what we want, i consider it's a mistake accetp everything they change or give to us without question them the poor effort they put on this, this game was remade bcs we complain, jobs and certain stuff has been 180º bcs we complaing about it, this game is based on that and still will be done.

yeah i didn't implique that was everyone opinion (and if i make you think otherwise then sorry wasn't my intention), but im pretty sure im not the only one thinking that fortunately.

[cactuarzzzz]

ah ok ... btw shao do you still have time to look at what I came up with this time? > https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...t-won-t-happen.

[currentlemon]

Dark Knight is the first tank I leveled and the only job I have at level 80. I enjoy the job, but as you said, it needs a rework. Seriously, this job doesn't get exciting until at least level 70.