Yoshi-P Sanpo comments re: Bard

[Morningstar1337]

Because BLM doesn't need a res.
It doesn't make sense with what a BLM is either traditionally or as it's implemented in FF14.
If it got one it's kit would make it an even bigger res machine than RDM.
And BRD is one of the "support-iest" jobs, so I can understand the logic though I don't think BRD needs a res either.

I can see the Umbral Ice thing being fixed by making it a Cooldown instead of a spell. But as a counterpoint, I'd like to point out that BLM is neither SMN or a support job and that giving it a rez would give them an excuse to nerf the job.

That said the discrepancy is enough to make me not wanna see it on BRD either. But something to a similar effect could work. Like a buff that grants them a Living Dead/Superbolide/Beyond Death effect that ensures the target survives an otherwise lethal hit. But then again that would be a proactive tool and thus needs foresight compared to a rez.

[Rai_Takara]

Because BLM doesn't need a res.
It doesn't make sense with what a BLM is either traditionally or as it's implemented in FF14.
If it got one it's kit would make it an even bigger res machine than RDM.
And BRD is one of the "support-iest" jobs, so I can understand the logic though I don't think BRD needs a res either.

As an aside, it doesn't matter what makes or doesn't make sense from a lore wise and they specifically said they wanted to remove job abilities from lore so they can make changes at their leisure without lore getting in the way. If all casters don't lose caster raise next expansion, you better bet raises are being moved to role action and therefore shared between all casters including BLM.

[ItMe]

If all casters don't lose caster raise next expansion, you better bet raises are being moved to role action and therefore shared between all casters including BLM.

Sure, I'll take that bet.
What are we betting?

[gumas]

iam glad that BRD is getting damage buff but i wonder how much are we getting. if our dps shot up on par with say... DRG dps, i can see DRG player will start complain about it, a range class with dps on par with DRG but also have good support utility is pretty unfair like it or not.

[Jirah]

The passive song buffs are getting removed in 6.0 anyway

Confirmed? Or just a theory

[Akiudo]

iam glad that BRD is getting damage buff but i wonder how much are we getting. if our dps shot up on par with say... DRG dps, i can see DRG player will start complain about it, a range class with dps on par with DRG but also have good support utility is pretty unfair like it or not.

while i don't even see them raising bard to mch levels i have to say this, "a ranged class with dps on par with drg" you mean like summoner, blackmage or redmage ? cause all 3 have dps on par (well even the weakest out of these 3 is actually higher) than dragoon, and while they don't have the "free" movement they very much are ranged and can handle mechanics appropriatly.

or is it the utility support that irks you ? cause in that case yea, bard has great utility, wardens paen which works basically never and a 20% single target heal buff (no shield so it won't save the tank from getting oneshotted) which realistically means unless you are very specifically coordinating exactly for usage off that buff all it will ever do is end up in overhealing on a single player that got healed for 20% more than the group that got topped of with aoes. its a sad reality but when 90% of damage is either raidwide or a tankbuster than a single target healing buff would need to be enormous to be worth anything, monks mantra even at 10% is still a WAY better skill. Literally the only utility support bard has that is worth more than lip service is troubadour being better than feint.

[cactuarzzzz]

I'm afraid SE might try to just "give them some personal damage" and didn't try to fix bard buff again.

[Connor]

From what I’ve seen about the upcoming Bard buffs I imagine it’ll very much just be increasing DoT potencies and probably increased Burst Shot potency. I’d be very surprised if they touch the jobs utility in any way.

Which is fine in the short-term, we can’t really expect anything more from them, but at the same time it does feel like they’re sticking a small band-aid on a gaping wound. It’s a start, but it’s still not really taking into account what the actual issue is lol.

That said, I get that it’s unfair to expect them to do anything more; these things take time. I’m sure the personal dps buffs will be enough to make Bard ultra-popular at least, since from what I understand most Bard players aren’t interested in the support/utility anyway. Assuming they actually are buffs, and not like when they added back passive song effects but then immediately nerfed Bard DoTs

[Cetonis]

Confirmed? Or just a theory

You snipped off the ", most likely" XD

SE got rid of the passive song buffs in 5.0. So it's clear that they don't like them. And, other than "it's better than nothing", I've never gotten the impression that the players really like them either. They're too small for anyone to notice, and they provide no gameplay value. I would expect SE to replace them with some other form of damage support in 6.0, just something they couldn't release in a patch.

That said, I get that it’s unfair to expect them to do anything more; these things take time. I’m sure the personal dps buffs will be enough to make Bard ultra-popular at least, since from what I understand most Bard players aren’t interested in the support/utility anyway.

I don't know if either part of that is super true. For sure, the support profile was one of the reasons Bard was the most popular dps job in Stormblood. There are a lot of players that really like feeling like they're helping their party out. That just doesn't necessarily extend to wanting pure support jobs in the game or a full on bard-ranger job split or whatever. Most were happy enough with an archer that had a bunch of song-motif party support skills.

By extension, I don't know how much dps buffs will do to bolster the popularity. The core of the damage-dealing kit is still fun, at a basic level, but it still lacks dynamics that people enjoyed in SB, while QoL problems have been exacerbated. And there still wouldn't be a very good support paradigm. I'm sure the number of people playing it will go up, but it will likely remain as one of the less popular dps long-term.

[Akiudo]

as i see it a big problem when people talk about bards and what the role "wants" is that too many people are lumping together damage and utility support.

Theres a fundamental difference between things like Wardens Paeon/natures minne and The passive song buffs, yet many people talk about these things like they are one and the same, or argue that "bards cried for support, now they got it and they still cry"

Damage buffs, be they active or passive first and foremost are just that, damage. On a personal level there may be some felt difference between dishing out high numbers yourself or buffing others to do so for you, but in the end what remains is Damage, if that number simply falls short than it doesn't matter if its through buffing the group or doing it yourself, imagine bard dealing 0 personal dps but buffing group dps on a current raid tier fight in a top level group by 10k dps, that would be the ultimate buffer by a ridicioulus number, it would also be completly worthless.

On the other hand utility buffs (things like rezz, better shield than the competition, healing buffs for the group etc...) are things that actually offer additional value aside from damage, therefore they can stand on their own.

However, bard is failing in both these aspects.

bard buffs the group through its presence yes. that however is completly worthless the moment total dps contribution can't keep up, its not even a question how bards feel about its damage buffs, its a question about how the community feels about bards total damage contribution.

now looking at bards utility is another matter in its entirety, Yes, bard does offer some utility, however that utility simply is not good. take a honest look at the game, things like redmages ability to chain rezz actually is good utility, and it still gets overshadowed completly by "does more dps" if you ask people if smn or redmage is the stronger caster. Now compare this to bard, who's utility in the end boils down to 2 skills, one of which works nearly nowhere (paean) and another one which simply does not lend itself to being usefull do to the way fights are designed (Minne)

both these things are fundamentally different, bards current problem is that its falling short in both aspects, but that discussion is not helped by people mixing both of these aspects up, as they are vastly different. Most bards are probably perfectly fine losing some damage if in exchange they get meaningfull utility, but "buffing group damage" is not utility, and again also completly worthless either way if the total damage contribution can't keep up.


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to be perfectly clear, i'm not saying "bards don't care for damage" or stuff like that, i am however saying that the supporting nature of bard is in itself part of its identity for many people, it is however a simple fact of how this game works that first and foremost a classes damage contribution has to keep up acceptably which can than be supported by giving a class additional utility to further compensate for smaller shortcomings in the damage department.

However as long as the damage can't keep up to a reasonable degree a class will in fact allways be undesired by the community, even if it plays fine, which in turn will alienate the playerbase of these classes. lets be real here, no one wants to feel undesired do to his class choice, people that actively chose a class that originally prided itself on a more supportive nature probably even less than the general player base.