"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Goji1639]

When you aren't even capable of stringing together a halfway passable rotation or use your job's kit to even its partial potential, yeah you're absolutely party to the blame of the failure.

So my DPS rotation is the problem when the pull fails in the first 30 seconds because the tank or healer dies? Gotcha, awesome note. You clearly know what you're talking about. Elite veteran player with super sharp instincts.

Of course it varies based on the dungeon. We can't say 4 pack pulls are standard if not every dungeon has 4 packs that can be pulled.


Now you are just arguing semantics.

"Big pulls" are standard is uselessly vague. The fact that you all can't even really define what it is you want is why this thread has been arguing in circles.

Wall to wall is a perfectly reasonable expectation when the instance doesn't even allow legitimately big pulls.

[Lucy_Pyre]

So my DPS rotation is the problem when the pull fails in the first 30 seconds because the tank or healer dies? Gotcha, awesome note. You clearly know what you're talking about. Elite veteran player with super sharp instincts.

Claiming that the tank or healer insta-dies every time a big pull fails is nothing more than being facetious because you and I both know that's anything but the truth of the situation. Sometimes big pulls fail because the tank is an idiot that doesn't use cooldowns. Sometimes they fail because the healer is watching Netflix on their second monitor instead of healing. Yet, sometimes as well it fails because the tank and healer cycle through all of their respective cooldowns, only for the pack to still be quite alive because the DPS are garbage and the ranged/caster just decides to save LB for next expansion.

[Goji1639]

Claiming that the tank or healer insta-dies every time a big pull fails is nothing more than being facetious because you and I both know that's anything but the truth of the situation. Sometimes big pulls fail because the tank is an idiot that doesn't use cooldowns. Sometimes they fail because the healer is watching Netflix on their second monitor instead of healing. Yet, sometimes as well it fails because the tank and healer cycle through all of their respective cooldowns, only for the pack to still be quite alive because the DPS are garbage and the ranged/caster just decides to save LB for next expansion.

From my experience it's almost always the tank and healer. They're the 2 who both need to be on the same page, and if the tank doesn't use his CDs right or the Healer starts healing too early/too late, it's done. THAT happens a lot.

As for that pull failing because of DPS, I've honestly never seen it. Hell, I've done that Anyder pull successfully with a Trust. DPS aren't THAT important if both the Tank and Healer don't mess up.

[Melichoir]

From my experience it's almost always the tank and healer. They're the 2 who both need to be on the same page, and if the tank doesn't use his CDs right or the Healer starts healing too early/too late, it's done. THAT happens a lot.

As for that pull failing because of DPS, I've honestly never seen it. Hell, I've done that Anyder pull successfully with a Trust. DPS aren't THAT important if both the Tank and Healer don't mess up.

Yes and no.

Yes, technically with how more recent dungeons are designed, dps can afk to some extent and tanks and healers (if theyre competent) can mange it. However there are caveats to this: Some of the dungeons have hard hitting mobs mixed in with the regular trash. Even if your tank and heals are on the same page, you can run out of CDs and healing potential even if both are on the same page and die to being overwhelmed by the large pack pull + hard hitting mobs. It is possible to die to a large pull cause the DPS are not killing things fast enough for the pull size. Ive seen it happen enough, particularly in back to back large pulls.

Beyond that, 2-3 packs can be a lot depending on pack size and composition. In Grand Cosmos, you can only pull 9 mobs total before the first 'gate', and that is considered a big pull because the damage out put is pretty high despite it being a pack of six and a pack of 3. You could be in trouble as a tank and healer if the dps afks when you pull all 9 as you may run out of CDs before defeating enough of the pack to survive on regular healing with no CDs.

[Lucy_Pyre]

From my experience it's almost always the tank and healer. They're the 2 who both need to be on the same page, and if the tank doesn't use his CDs right or the Healer starts healing too early/too late, it's done. THAT happens a lot.

As for that pull failing because of DPS, I've honestly never seen it. Hell, I've done that Anyder pull successfully with a Trust. DPS aren't THAT important if both the Tank and Healer don't mess up.

About the kind of response I expected from you of all people, the person who parrots the idea that you should always divert blame and not accept resonsibility for your own failures.

[Goji1639]

About the kind of response I expected from you of all people, the person who parrots the idea that you should always divert blame and not accept resonsibility for your own failures.

Blame yourself for everything, even when it doesn't make sense. The next time a big pull fails because the tank dies in 20 seconds I'll acknowledge my Ninja was to blame. Again your instincts are spot on. So elite.

snip

Well, if the DPS are flat out not participating then anything can become a problem. Even with minimal participation from DPS, though, damage isn't really an issue. The healer and tank, on the other hand, have very specific things they need to do to not botch a massive pull. It's much easier for them to fail and wipe the group, and that's what happens most frequently.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Blame yourself for everything, even when it doesn't make sense. The next time a big pull fails because the tank dies in 20 seconds I'll acknowledge my Ninja was to blame. Again your instincts are spot on. So elite.

Nah, I'm just calling out your outright lies that it's *never* the fault of the DPS when things go wrong.

[Vahlnir]

Nah, I'm just calling out your outright lies that it's *never* the fault of the DPS when things go wrong.

Honestly, I thought you'd have learned by now that engaging them is a waste of time. That's why I stopped. But...most times it does indeed fall on the tank and healer, though I would still say it's a team effort regardless. Even the best of tanks and healers can't handle a large enough pull indefinitely. That is where it falls to the dps to bring everything down before it gets out of hand. Both the tank and healer only have so many CDs they can burn through in the span of a couple minutes. If the dps is lacking it isn't impossible for it to take that long, if not longer. And when the dps simply isn't there...best to take it slow. Everyone has to adapt at some point or another to their current situation.

[Goji1639]

Nah, I'm just calling out your outright lies that it's *never* the fault of the DPS when things go wrong.

I didn't say it's never their fault; I'm saying I've never seen that big pull wipe from lack of DPS. The Tank and Healer by far play the most important roles in a massive pull; even good players could potentially make a mistake that wipes the group. Whereas with DPS it would take 2 exceptionally bad ones for them to actually cause the wipe. That's just far less likely to happen.