Gath and his concern for lack of LS competition.

[Eldaena]

Gath wanting to be on top is definitely something I want and I would be lying if I said otherwise, but I want others to compete for that spot. Having HNMs is good. You get items that you can sell which helps people out that are not part of the shell. Games run smoother with a few linkshells that supply the higher tier items that can be sold on the AH. I wouldn't call me selfish because I would rather see linkshells thrive than just exist. People are really only against HNMs because most are lazy and don't want to put the time and effort in obtaining them. People claim that bots stop this, this is very false. If you look at the system FFXI had later in the HNM game then you would notice the mobs spawned purple and if they were voked during this time they were locked out. Wandering HNMs also solve this problem. I really like HNMs myself, but if there were more goals and competition the game would be a lot more interesting with LS vs LS.

Gath's 1 gil is worth more than your 1 gil.

My point is that I think you want this more for yourself than for the happiness of others. I think more content is really just what people need/want. I've been really happy with the content in this game except for when it runs out. I'm happier challenging NMs and AIs and fights designed for parties. I would be okay with some kind of content like maybe defense missions against other groups of players, or other pvp, because if people want to fight other players, they can then. But I don't think it's fair to make it so that you must be practically fighting against other players in order to fight something else (like an NM or something) or in your case to simply gloat about how great your LS is over other linkshells.

[Altanas]

On the other side of the coin Gath, when you start implementing competition based HNMs you end up destroying the social shells or sidelining them down to exclusively event shells. There ends up being no real community, more like acquaintenances or "colleagues". When an event finishes, before you can say "see you next time" everyone has gone back to their other LS.

At the moment, social shells can freely partake in activities without fear of a wasted frustrating evening because another LS decided to do the same thing. In turn social shells can do all events together as an LS building up deeper relationships with fellow guild members. When theres no need for specific HNM shells, the average joe social shell can dabble in a bit of everything keeping everyone happy. This is the distinction that 14 should develop upon, that there are minimal bottleknecks to even simply starting the event.

In the end, through an effective social shell (that will go on to learn how to win events) or through a highly unforgiving HNM shell, you will end up with the same thing, boss dead and more gear/items. I'd rather progress naturally with a lenient shell in relaxed conditions knowing we will work it out eventually as opposed to being ordered around in a HNM shell being forced to come as a certain job to every single activity.

You mention dynamis, limbus, etc. They werent competition based at all, they were Event based.

FF11 would have died many years ago with just HNMs. Granted, TAU and WOTG brought in new HNMs but they also brought in even better things like Salvage.

That said HNMs do have their place, as they make the world semi-dynamic, but respawn times need serious scrutiny, and if there are people after HNMs gotta respect their style of play.

Claiming also needs scrutiny. Perhaps having HNMs pop in groups would be a better anti-bottleneck option - say HNM-1 spawns in Thanalan, at the same time HNM-2 spawns in Limsa, with some SE coding I'm sure they can restrict anyone in that same LS or FreeCompany claiming NM2 if they have NM1 claimed in the other zone, and for those alt characters, have the NM simply despawn to avert holding tricks.

[Geesus]

Again, PvP does nothing for a game other than "Har har, our epeen is bigger than yours" it does not really help the servers in a whole. The yes, and each shell was competing on who monopolized. Hence competition, hence an AH with higher tier items.

How does one LS monopolizing anything HNM or ... anything in this game prove to be any better than one person monopolizing wins in PvP? Isn't your thought and what you have mentioned about LS v LS nothing more then you ENTIRE LS stroking THEIR collective epeens? O.o

[Gath]

My point is that I think you want this more for yourself than for the happiness of others. I think more content is really just what people need/want. I've been really happy with the content in this game except for when it runs out. I'm happier challenging NMs and AIs and fights designed for parties. I would be okay with some kind of content like maybe defense missions against other groups of players, or other pvp, because if people want to fight other players, they can then. But I don't think it's fair to make it so that you must be practically fighting against other players in order to fight something else (like an NM or something) or in your case to simply gloat about how great your LS is over other linkshells.

Gath is not in it for himself. Gath is in it for all of Gath's fans. Gath must have done something to make you sad. Did Gath hurt his fans feelings?

If Gath was in it for himself Gath would not have made this thread. Nowhere in this topic does Gath say "GATH WANT'S EVERYTHING MADE FOR GATH SO GATH CAN BE THE BEST!"? No Gath stated he wants competition. Gath misses the golden days of MMOs where people didn't bitch about "OH MA GAH! I HAVE TO CAMP NMS FOR LONG TIME! MY BUTT HURTS BECAUSE I LIKE FRANCE!!! (You know, the whole neutrality thing)"

People want realism mixed in with Final Fantasy, a majority wishes it so. Putting competition for people to fight over is human nature, how realistic can you get?

How does one LS monopolizing anything HNM or ... anything in this game prove to be any better than one person monopolizing wins in PvP? Isn't your thought and what you have mentioned about LS v LS nothing more then you ENTIRE LS stroking THEIR collective epeens? O.o

Yes, perhaps but it supplies something to the community at the same time. I don't care who wants to stroke their epeen, as long as their epeen supplies the community with mats and items they wouldn't normally be able to obtain and so on.

On the other side of the coin Gath, when you start implementing competition based HNMs you end up destroying the social shells or sidelining them down to exclusively event shells. There ends up being no real community, more like acquaintenances or "colleagues". When an event finishes, before you can say "see you next time" everyone has gone back to their other LS.

At the moment, social shells can freely partake in activities without fear of a wasted frustrating evening because another LS decided to do the same thing. In turn social shells can do all events together as an LS building up deeper relationships with fellow guild members. When theres no need for specific HNM shells, the average joe social shell can dabble in a bit of everything keeping everyone happy. This is the distinction that 14 should develop upon, that there are minimal bottleknecks to even simply starting the event.

In the end, through an effective social shell (that will go on to learn how to win events) or through a highly unforgiving HNM shell, you will end up with the same thing, boss dead and more gear/items. I'd rather progress naturally with a lenient shell in relaxed conditions knowing we will work it out eventually as opposed to being ordered around in a HNM shell being forced to come as a certain job to every single activity.

You mention dynamis, limbus, etc. They werent competition based at all, they were Event based.

FF11 would have died many years ago with just HNMs. Granted, TAU and WOTG brought in new HNMs but they also brought in even better things like Salvage.

That said HNMs do have their place, as they make the world semi-dynamic, but respawn times need serious scrutiny, and if there are people after HNMs gotta respect their style of play.

Claiming also needs scrutiny. Perhaps having HNMs pop in groups would be a better anti-bottleneck option - say HNM-1 spawns in Thanalan, at the same time HNM-2 spawns in Limsa, with some SE coding I'm sure they can restrict anyone in that same LS or FreeCompany claiming NM2 if they have NM1 claimed in the other zone, and for those alt characters, have the NM simply despawn to avert holding tricks.

The only thing social shells ever provided was the funds for the HNM shells to thrive in other aspects of the game.

Hardcore players are what run a game to its fullest extent unless the MMO wants to cater to the carebears who want nothing more than to RP and switch between their 30 shells.

Comon' white knights Gath is here to take you all on! >:O

Gath's 1 gil is worth more than your 1 gil.

[neizero]

wtf is this sh1t...

[Geesus]

Yes, perhaps but it supplies something to the community at the same time. I don't care who wants to stroke their epeen, as long as their epeen supplies the community with mats and items they wouldn't normally be able to obtain and so on.

Agreed on competition and exactly what you said there but maybe it's me or maybe others "feel" it too but, it came off in a rather shite sort of way.

I remember the EoG LSs of XI as well; was in one. Did the Dynamis runs yada yada but competition game from whose LS won and what gear they got and yeah the time it was completed. Camping HNMs hadddd it's moments I'll give that to ya but maybe it was just my server but we could have cared LESS who camped X HNM for X time! lol Good for you we did this and this and this and got this .... get my point? When I saw the title of this thread this is where I thought you were going but as I read more and more and *zzzzZZZzzzZ* more... /yawn I realized it wasn't and where one place you say you don't want people to act like jerks such as can happen in a PvP environment, you turn right around and support it; at least that's how I'm reading it. If I'm wrong I'll apologize gladly I'm just being honest in why this thread grates this cat the wrong way for some reason.

Btw, there was a hint of /sarcasm in there; but pretty sure you can take it. And the white knight crap ... ? oi 8-|

[AreeyaJaidee]

You're misinterpreting me. I meant there is no gain for the group that gets nothing because you decided to camp over them. If there was nothing to gain (not speaking monetary) from spending time with people, we wouldn't have friends. I'm saying your views on this are selfish. You're saying that your interest is in other linkshells, but I think this is actually something you want to just make it seem like you're better than others (more than you already do.) That you want LS competition means you just want to set yourself on a pedestal because you think you are, in fact, more important than others. In my mind, people are judged by the content of their character; not how many bosses they killed, the loot they got, or how many times they claimed over some other linkshell.

Contrary to your belief, all in-game currency's value is the same, even if it is sullied with your smudgy little lalafell fingerprints. =p

Angry much? You've attempted to berate the OP with narcissistic subterfuge because of his personal opinion, yet everything you've said is also personal opinion. Hmm...

Anyway, ignoring the immature aspects of some posts on this thread: It can be argued that competition is are is not healthy. We could also sit here like little children and shoot down each others perspectives which don't match our own personal desires.

However, "balance" is the keyword here.

The reason for most if the quarrels in this thread boils down to a fact: MMOs have different Tiers of player types. So in order to keep the game healthy there needs to be content for each. Casuals, Mediocre, and Hardcore (maybe there are more than three and maybe you call then different things).

Gath does touch on some aspects that are ever occurring. Loyalty is a big one. Linkshell loyalty doesn't mean much to casual players. Why? Because there's little to nothing at stake. However, for players who have a higher playtime or skill lvl, they see loyalty as "ppl like me that will minimize wasted playtime through efficiency that a less involved/caring player wouldn't necessarily offer".

Phrases like "you just want to be put on a pedestal" are proof of this concept. Players who don't see a MMO as a competition are playing for different reasons. They don't want competition. That's cool. That's where balance comes in. We don't ban football or athletics because ppl exist that can barely tie their shoes much less throw a football.

"Different strokes for different folks."

So the real message of this thread should be seen as: Dear SE, we top tier players look forward to you adding more challenging content with which we can find pride for completion and competition. <Yes Please.>

*huggles* :3

P.S. Difference of opinion is not a warrant for harassment. We are living in the year 2012 so act civilized and try to respect that other humans deserve your common courtesy.

[Geesus]

Gath does touch on some aspects that are ever occurring. Loyalty is a big one. Linkshell loyalty doesn't mean much to casual players. Why? Because there's little to nothing at stake. However, for players who have a higher playtime or skill lvl, they see loyalty as "ppl like me that will minimize wasted playtime through efficiency that a less involved/caring player wouldn't necessarily offer".

/sigh

Yep true but not totally. I'm a casual player. My linkshell is a social LS that actually DOES do End Game but also does runs and helps new or returning players into the game. So why I agreed WHOLEheartedly about the Loyalty thing, I think some players have moved on to a more "we can have the best of both worlds" approach. *shrugs*

[Deli]

I think competition will glue some people together, but most important some special people with charm, like Gath, can glue ppl together better. It's always like a pack of friend or wolves always has a leader... when this person pop and people started to talk in LS again, usually is real life girl... donno why... XD

I hate competition personally but ya, back then when the HNM just show up, LS activity is much better. At least, more ppl show up to do LS event... I guess it's really depend on what's people want... and personal interest.

[Gospel]

wtf is this sh1t...

Do I have to post the list again?...