"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Lucy_Pyre]

So which is it? Is it always important that everyone is giving their best? Or is it not important in normal raids and dungeons? If it's only important in the case of savage, then I always just use a static anyway. I still ask if i can offer advice in those cases just because usually other people are speaking. I'm relatively soft spoken, so simply speaking up in the middle of a conversation usually doesn't get me anywhere. Also, if one does elect to join a static they are subject to the static's rules. If those include constantly discussing performance then they already agreed to it. To me, the term "their group" refers to something more than playing with randoms in DF'er.

But yeah, to me it is strange. When i see that I out perform people in a random group, my thoughts are never "dang I carried that scrub." They are more like "wow! i contributed a lot!"

I had a run of Cosmos for Expert about an hour and a half ago. Not only did the WHM almost never cast a Glare during bosses (and only used a handful of Holy's on trash) but the only heals he ever casted were Cure 1 and Medica. Yes, at level 80. My RDM Co-DPS had to actually use Vercure on himself and me (MCH) during the first boss at two different points in order to keep us both from dying because the healer could barely keep the DRK alive with his pitiful Cure 1. Now, I don't know about you, but when one of the DPS has to assist with the healing in order to keep themselves and their Co-DPS alive when the healer is alive and well, that's a problem. I simply cannot fathom how one gets to level 80 while being so incredibly lacking in their understanding of their job and how it functions.

[Laesha]

I had a run of Cosmos for Expert about an hour and a half ago. Not only did the WHM almost never cast a Glare during bosses (and only used a handful of Holy's on trash) but the only heals he ever casted were Cure 1 and Medica. Yes, at level 80. My RDM Co-DPS had to actually use Vercure on himself and me (MCH) during the first boss at two different points in order to keep us both from dying because the healer could barely keep the DRK alive with his pitiful Cure 1. Now, I don't know about you, but when one of the DPS has to assist with the healing in order to keep themselves and their Co-DPS alive when the healer is alive and well, that's a problem. I simply cannot fathom how one gets to level 80 while being so incredibly lacking in their understanding of their job and how it functions.

And this would be a situation in which i would request that I not be made to heal with vercure (as It directly impacts my personal performance [doing the best dps I can do as a dps job]). Sadly when i rdm I end up having to make up for lack of healing on both ends of the spectrum because i want to continue progressing through the dungeon. If it's remotely possibly to continue without waiting for a replacement healer (whether they are kicked or quit or are sitting and sulking w/e) I want to do so. For what it's worth, I also have no idea how someone reaches level 80 without learning more than that.

As to doing one's best, I think it's always worth doing my best. For me though, it has nothing to do with how i feel about my team and everything to do about taking pride in my work/play/performance. Do i feel kind of bad that other people don't take that same pride in themselves and feel that sense of reward? A little. But it's none of my business. Similarly, my teammates' time (or lack thereof) is none of my business, nor is mine their's. Any temporal benefit they gain (or not) from me being in the same party/static/group as me is merely a side effect of me giving my best effort. Saving anyone time is never my goal.

[Melichoir]

And this would be a situation in which i would request that I not be made to heal with vercure (as It directly impacts my personal performance [doing the best dps I can do as a dps job]).

How dare you, I mean how dare you, request the healer improve at their job.

/s

Flippant response aside, You seem to understand the concept that there are a lot of players that dont even play their class right (out of lazyness or ignorance), but this isnt a problem to you? Yes, doing your best is important, but if your efforts to do your best is ham-stringed by other players, are you ok with that?

This would be like if youre in a boss fight and someone has wiped you for the umpteenth time - At what point do you actually get frustrated and say "Hmm this is a problem player who is preventing me from doing my best?" And what do you do about that frustration? According to some people in this thread, saying anything in party is a no no. And to demand or at the least ask that players have a basic level of competency with their role and class is out of the question. What do you do? Just walk away from the group and be like "Oh well, guess Im not clearing this."

Be realistic here: Most people get incredibly frustrated in a team work environment if someone is messing it up or slacking off. No one likes to carry the slacker through the hard work.


And this is the crux of the issue. This isnt a black and white issue where players are either 24/7 max dps give it your all try hard status or otherwise youre a trash casual. It's an issue where what is being asked for, for everyone's sake is a modest amount of role and class understanding. You dont need to do your best in every bit of content cause thats not realistic. No one is 100% all the time. We all have off days. But there is a huge difference between an elite player slacking off vs a casual. The elite is gonna miss timing windows, or possibly mess up a CD or rotation. A casual slacking off is "Press 1 or 2 buttons and dont bother with class or boss mechanics." The performance difference is pretty noticeable.

Part of this 'elite vs casual' friction that you see is because there is such a huge disparity between the two groups, and that disparity grows when they (the devs) keep dropping the skill floor. We can fix some of this simply by requiring more of our fellow players, but what comes along with that is the willingness to help them improve. You cant say "Git Gud" but not provide any help to get there. If we keep doing this nonsense of "Not my business/not my problem' and "its ok to do the bare minimum and press 1 button while you get carried", youll just continue to get more of what we get - bigger and bigger disconnect and discontent between the two player groups.

[Mikey_R]

As i've stated in past posts, as long as the tank is tanking/the healer is healing, I couldn't care less what the other dps is doing. As long as it isn't hindering my performance, i just don't care.

I'm surprised this has not been mentioned or touched on at all but this sentence alone proves that you have different expectations based solely on someone's role in the group.

Starting with tanking, you say, as long as the tank is tanking. Taking the absolute basics, the tank has to hold hate and that is it. That means they need to keep a single target combo on one enemy or use their AoE combo on a pack. If they fail to hold hate, they fail as a tank. So you have now made a minimum performance criteria that you have deemed acceptable.

Onto healing. As long as they keep the party alive, who cares what they do. If there are no deaths (barring people doing silly things that are out of the healers control), all is good. Again, you have set a minimum performance criteria that you have deemed acceptable.

Now we go to DPS. You say, you do not care. This means, the DPS can do what they want and you will not care, as long as it does not impact your performance in any way. Which can be translated as, the DPS can stand in a corner and do nothing as long as they do not get in the way. You have set no sort of basic minimum performance criteria for a DPS at all, but the question is, why? Why should the DPS not have some sort of minimum they should be doing, after all, the tanks and healers do.

It is this sort of thinking that leads to the discussions that are happening now. i will almost guarantee that everyone who say they do not care what the DPS do, as long as you clear it is fine, they still hold some sort of criteria for the tanks and healers. Again, why not the DPS? If a tanks job is to tank, a healer is to heal, it is a DPS' job to do damage. A DPS should still have that minimum criteria to reach.

It is worth reiterating, noone expects savage level damage. For me personally, a DPS should be able to string together their basic GCD rotation and just throw in oGCDs when they feel like it with no rhyme or reason. Who cares if it's optimal to use lance charge before or after chaos thrust, who cares if Drill has been sat waiting for a few seconds or you have accidentally used reassemble on split shot. At least you are doing something. It is worth noting that different people will have different ideas for what they consider the absolute minimum to be acceptable and that is fine, as long as some sort of minimum exists.

[Vahlnir]

I'm surprised this has not been mentioned or touched on at all but this sentence alone proves that you have different expectations based solely on someone's role in the group.

What they don't seem to realize either is that, regardless of whether someone else's performance affects them directly or not, it still affects them. This is especially the case when its their fellow dps. See that enrage timer or dps check? Gotta meet that or it's a wipe. Are your other dps down? Guess what? That stack marker that was just placed on you is the equivalent of a Doom debuff if the healers and tanks can't save you by rushing to your aid, if they rush at all. But what matters is that you were able to perform your own rotations and mechanics right, right? Wrong. In a team setting, everyone must work together. Everyone's performance affects their party even in the smallest of ways. That is a fact that they don't seem all that willing to accept. I've seen some pretty crazy downward spirals caused by the death of a single dps.

[Lucy_Pyre]

What they don't seem to realize either is that, regardless of whether someone else's performance affects them directly or not, it still affects them. This is especially the case when its their fellow dps. See that enrage timer or dps check? Gotta meet that or it's a wipe. Are your other dps down? Guess what? That stack marker that was just placed on you is the equivalent of a Doom debuff if the healers and tanks can't save you by rushing to your aid, if they rush at all. But what matters is that you were able to perform your own rotations and mechanics right, right? Wrong. In a team setting, everyone must work together. Everyone's performance affects their party even in the smallest of ways. That is a fact that they don't seem all that willing to accept. I've seen some pretty crazy downward spirals caused by the death of a single dps.

So very much this. I main a tank, but I have plenty of DPS at 80 and play a handful of them (MCH, NIN, SAM) fairly regularly in EX content and below. One thing that has always bothered me is that, even to most 'casual' players, there are minimum expectations that almost all players have for tanks & healers, yet many in this camp have no such equivalent for DPS. It seems to me to be along the same line as the thought process many have that DPS are expendable, since DPS players are a dime a dozen compared to the more rare tanks & healers. It just seems strange to me that people view tanks & healers are so much more important than DPS when, realistically, all three roles are equally as important as one another. This is most easily seen by running dungeons with extremely bad DPS. Even if your tank and healer are performing extremely well the dungeon will still take a minimum of 2x the amount of time to clear as it realistically should, and if you do this same situation in EX content and beyond, you will outright not clear at all due to failing to have the damage required to pass the DPS checks.

[Laesha]

snip for length

Yeah, of course I understand. Y'all act like i'm not a little bummed every time I see the second set of seeds drop on the second GCosmos boss. Of course I am. But that's actually a good example of the nuance that exists for me -

(I understand that we're getting closer here and it may seem like splitting hairs, but to me, the nuance is important and worth discussing)

Seeing the second seed drop on that boss isn't breaking any of the "cogs" in the party. One cog may be turning a little on the slow side, but it's not actually dropping below the minimum threshold of being able to complete the instance. To me, that's quite a bit different than a tank not holding aggro or a healer letting people die for lack of healing. Similarly, a healer dps'ing or not isn't breaking the cog to me. It doesn't actually affect my ability to perform. Occasionally i see lack of dps approach the threshold, but usually not. For example, I vividly recall a run of the final ShBr story dungeon where the tank and I were the only ones dealing dmg to the boss. The other dps was dead at every opportunity it seemed. Healer only healed. The tank and I managed to kill the boss during the final cast of Apocolypsis when there were no safe platforms. One more tick and we would have wiped. It was hard but we did it. The tank actually healed me a lot after the healer died. It was definitely a team effort. So yeah, I also do understand that there comes a point where the dps cog can break, but those times are exceedingly rare anywhere below savage level. (at least in my experience)

If someone wiped me specifically over and over, i admit i would get very frustrated. I probably wouldn't think to myself that i wont' clear the fight, but I probably would feel like i wouldn't clear the fight with that particular group. And yeah I would probably just leave. If me getting splattered by the 12th meteor getting dropped on me or on my melee spot(or whatever other mechanic). Obviously, I'm not perfect either and there have been times that i've boiled over in situations like that. But I think the best thing to do would be to ask the group rather than the problem player. If others in the group agreed that this player was a problem after discussing the issue then I would move to eject them.

And yeah, i totally agree it's not a black and white issue. I think there are loads of nuances here to discuss. I also recognize that the disparity is ever growing, but unless the game forces the issue, I just don't think it's a good thing for me (or anyone else) to expect more than what we're seeing now. Also, I'm not offering my opinion on whether or not the developers should or should not move in that direction. Merely stating that unless they do, the game does not instill any manner of expectation. I also think that due to the huge variance that exists inside that grey area gives people the wrong idea about where the measuring stick is.

One of those last replies I got is a great example of this. If it's important for people to put in... we'll call it "sufficient effort," and someone does that in content like e5n, we can't have people jumping in and saying "LOL bruh that shit don't matter. git gud" At that point it's little wonder to me that people toss out any semblance of effort or self respect. And we can argue until our fingers are sore about whether or not that constitutes "over sensitivity" but whether it does or not doesn't matter. What matters is that person now feels like the goal-posts are moving and that there is no reason to play that part of the game.

On a separate note, thank you for taking the time to respond. I enjoy reading your posts.

[Melichoir]

snipper snips

The main issue is as a player base we need to start coming to an implicit agreement of what is and isnt acceptable in casual content, and to (in my estimate) demand a better level of play from our peers.

No one is saying "Go try hard" in E5N. But people should be able to complete that fight with 0 deaths in a reasonable amount of time after theyve done the fight a handful or so times. That people know what stack markers are, what knockback immunity is for, what CDs are, to get in a bit of DPS if you dont need to be healing, etc. Im not saying if youre a fresh 80 and youve only seen the fight like a time or two and everythign is coming at you that you need to be up to snuff. That would be ridiculous.

But when I see people wearing 480-490 gear, have multiple level 80s, get a single target damage marker and run into a group and kill a bunch of people, get blown off the edge from a knockback either cause they didnt immune it or positioned themselves poorly, or do other things incredibly lazily or poorly consistently in content, that should be frowned upon and we should be quicker to either reprimand or kick players. This doesnt mean go straight for the throat the second someone makes a mistake. Talk with people. Interact, offer up advice, etc. Make some effort ot help other players be better and give them avenues to improve and make progress in ability.

On the flip side, the "Git Gud you scrub or kick" overt rude elitist needs to be told to sit down and shush. No, you dont need to go max raid strat dps try hard mode for dungeons or normals. That attitude is more appropriate in Savage, if any place, but in regular content no. As long as people are giving solid effort and correcting mistakes and showing improvement, that should be enough. Youre not saving a whole lot of time if theyre not doing a perfect rotation. You can spare an extra minute or two if you want to do group content.

But this is all things the player base needs to start incorporating, and this does mean we need to stop dancing around the worry that we might upset people, or that someones poor performance is just as legitimate a play style as someone who does moderately well, let alone clears savage or ultimates. It means being fair to players who are new, helping out players who want help, and pushing back against players who just want to collect rewards while doing the minimum. It will mean some toes are gonna get stepped on, but if it means everyone plays better and we get less friction in the long run, then it's worth it.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Oh, this thread got bumped again. Pog.

[Katie_Kitty]

It's the former, by the way. From Satasha to Ultimates, someone should always aim to do their best. I could argue the virtues for doing so for one's self and how harmful the other side of that argument is, but that's a mentality and approach deal with self improvement. No, a player should give their best in every single thing because this is a team game and to not do so is disrespectful to the people you're playing with. To the team at the time. There is never a justification for not trying that is positive.

You know that, and I know that, but 75% of this game's community and the people who write the rules sadly do not.