6.0 Both Tank and Healers Need Major Focus on Bringing Back Job Identity

[Satarn]

However, I find it strange that your stance is also "if one job is a consistent meta pick, just reroll to that job." That's every bit as oppressive as complete homogenisation.

Jesus, do you just read posts as single paragraphs while ignoring the entire context and then move to the next one as if they're completely separate? I was never implying that's my stance - of course it's a freaking ridiculous, shitty thing to say to someone unironically. But so is saying that people should be just happy with the current design and stfu, because "woo, everything is balanced now" - which is pretty much what the guy I was responding to was saying. Context dude.

The entire point was that the goal of balance is to prevent people feeling like they should give up their preferred job gameplay for something that's more efficient and that balancing by making everything play the same is missing this goal completely. Obviously jobs need balance, but balance merely for the sake of itself is utterly pointless and excessive homogenization(like current state of tanks) is directly detrimental to what balancing is supposed to achieve - letting people play what they enjoy.

If people want to play a specific job they like, but can't because it's too weak, then making it meta by completely changing its gameplay helps no one, it does nothing, they still can't play the job they wanted to play. In fact it's even worse, because before they could at least play it in environments that don't straight up require optimal comps(which is most of the game including savage and ultimate btw).

While I share your opinion that jobs should have unique strengths and weaknesses, while all being able to fulfill their essential role duties - that's what I mean by asymmetrical balance - I disagree completely that it was even remotely necessary to bring everyone in the role to the new "starting point", like they did with SHB, before addressing that.

I find that late SB balance already started outlining the niches pretty well and would've served as a great base, even if they all needed some tweaking which could've been done in transition to next expansion, instead of throwing it all away and practically nuking the existing individuality. Especially in terms of dps mechanics for tanks(and healers), there was zero need to drastically alter those if they just wanted to make their total rDPS outputs somewhat equal.

[Kabooa]

I find that late SB balance already started outlining the niches pretty well and would've served as a great base, even if they all needed some tweaking which could've been done in transition to next expansion, instead of throwing it all away and practically nuking the existing individuality. Especially in terms of dps mechanics for tanks(and healers), there was zero need to drastically alter those if they just wanted to make their total rDPS outputs somewhat equal.

See, it's claims like these that raise my brow.

Paladin didn't really change that much. They got a new optimization thing to pursue in very niche cases, but otherwise they're still the same from Stormblood. 2 Sword rotations per Requiscat window. The Sword Rotations are A > B > C now from A > B > B, where C is just "The Cooler B".

The warrior basically didn't change, they just stapled more potency on to it.

The Dark Knight is the only one that got significantly changed, and really it just needs Delirium to not-be-cheaper-IR and it'd be suitably different, even though it, and all of them, could use a bit more depth.

If making Dark Knight less of a black sheep brought them all too close together that now it's unacceptable, our problems are rooted in Stormblood, because Paladin's playstyle is still there, Warrior's playstyle is like 95% there, Gunbreaker is its own thing.

So really it's just Dark Knight, and whoever misses rapidly pushing Dark Arts, and the dungeon style.

[Satarn]

...

That is if you merely look at the dps mechanics on tanks specifically, but the topic here isn't just that - it's also the tank toolkits beyond damage rotation as well as healer damage mechanics, both of which have been homogenized. I specified that it was late SB tank balance which I found pretty good, with all three having a bit of their own niche, but still being perfectly viable overall.

In terms of dps mechanics alone, I did definitely have issues with WAR design ever since 4.2. with the whole "zerquiscat" thing. I did however enjoy the differences in tank defensive and utility kits, which is what I was referring to(aside from DRK having completely nothing for raid mitigation, that was certainly something to be tweaked). These identities weren't perfect of course, but there was a good base to work from, with no need to "reset" in SHB and then start over in 6.0(which frankly I doubt they intended with this anyways).

I also have to add that if you actually find GNB rotation "it's own thing", then I suppose we have entirely different idea of what constitutes unique game-play, as I find GNB pretty much devoid of its own identity.

[Ekimmak]

Except I can actually double weave each Continuation with an oGCD. The Gnashing Fang combo doesn't hinder your tank duties in any way, it is simply a bit busier during it's burst windows. The only slightly annoying component of it is when you have to position an add or the boss during your burst, giving you relatively little time to move in-between combos.

Sorry, I think you mistyped that. I fixed it for you.

I. Cannot. Double Weave. I have tried to. I cannot.

[bundythenoob]

I also have to add that if you actually find GNB rotation "it's own thing", then I suppose we have entirely different idea of what constitutes unique game-play, as I find GNB pretty much devoid of its own identity.

This actually lends credit to a post i saw in another thread that made me come to a strange realisation.

I used to think that GNB was made during STB and then never modified after the butchering of the OG tanks, but the post in question said that GNB feels more like a Maiming DPS (similar to DRG but with less DPS for more utility) and that it was simply given a tank stance cuz Square arbitrarily decided they wanted it to be a tank.

now that I look at GNB in that way, it seems way more true than ever before. none of its actions have any tank-like feel to them, and it plays so similarly to a DPS class that I wouldn't be surprised if it was originally made to be a new Maiming type job

[Lyth]

...

The change was necessary. A certain degree of imbalance might have been acceptable in a game where the developers were aggressive with their changes and the meta swings frequently. It doesn't work when change is infrequent and going into an expansion underpowered means that you're likely to stay that way for the next two years, if not more. Either way, it's done now, and the bigger issue is figuring out where we need to go from this new starting point.

I like the idea of asymmetric balance, but the problem is that nobody on the dev team seems to be willing to do a systemic revision of the job action lists, such that those trade-offs happen in a systemic, thematic, and fair way. You're not going to make tanks play radically differently from each other. But you can make it such that they all can offer unique but optional advantages. And you also need the devs to actually take a stance on what each tank's identity is. This business of "Where's my Cover?" and "Where's my Plunge?" is the sort of thing that erodes job identity over time. Your job doesn't need to do everything well, as long as every job has something non-essential on offer that the others can't beat it at.

[Vyrerus]

This actually lends credit to a post i saw in another thread that made me come to a strange realisation.

I used to think that GNB was made during STB and then never modified after the butchering of the OG tanks, but the post in question said that GNB feels more like a Maiming DPS (similar to DRG but with less DPS for more utility) and that it was simply given a tank stance cuz Square arbitrarily decided they wanted it to be a tank.

now that I look at GNB in that way, it seems way more true than ever before. none of its actions have any tank-like feel to them, and it plays so similarly to a DPS class that I wouldn't be surprised if it was originally made to be a new Maiming type job

Funny that you say this. I mapped my Gunbreaker hotbars such that the standard combo was in the same spot as Full Thrust, Continuation is where Mirage Dive goes, and the Powder Gauge combo is where Chaos Thrust combo is on DRG hehe.

[Absurdity]

Sorry, I think you mistyped that. I fixed it for you.

I. Cannot. Double Weave. I have tried to. I cannot.

In that case there are probably a lot more jobs that simply don't work all that well for you. I don't know what is preventing you from pulling it off but gnb isn't the only one with some tighter weaving windows.

[ItMe]

GNB feels more like a Maiming DPS

Part of me feels like this is SQEX using the new tank to test the waters to see if we wouldn't want the role to play more like this.

[bundythenoob]

Part of me feels like this is SQEX using the new tank to test the waters to see if we wouldn't want the role to play more like this.

I would be inclined to agree with you, had Square not taken the other 3 tanks and butchered their kits so that they're less like DPS. I mean STB DRK could practically have been a DPS with how wild it played, not to mention if it got edge/flood at lv 74 it would have solved a lot of the Dark Arts spam problems. WAR was the literal blue DPS meme before GNB came and took the spot, and even tho PLD still retained much of its gameplay, it still got more dps spells for its requiescat window. I wish they had gone down that route instead of what we got, but hopefully they see the error in their ways. and soon.