"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[ForteNightshade]

Also, as I've actually said (several times now), a lot of it just depends. If it seems as though the person doing the learning (making the mistakes, what-have-you) is open to learning or in a learning environment, i would as if they wanted any tips, pointers, extra guidance, etc. If we use our last interaction as an example, I would simply start with "may I offer a correction?" To me, there is nothing about this that is "tip-toe'ing" or "walking on eggshells" as you put. If yes, I would proceed to correct. If no, i would not. For me, the important thing is not offering unsolicited advice. I am not against all advice, only the presumptive stance that I (or anyone else for that matter) should listen to you regardless of what you have to say. I just believe that unsolicited advice is rude. Always. The end. None of these arguments are remotely good enough to mitigate its rudeness in my opinion. And if that's a problem for you then like... idk what to tell ya lol. Guess i'll continue to be part of the problem. *shrug*

By that logic, if a tank didn't use any cooldowns on a tank buster yet didn't die due to the healers panic healing them up, you wouldn't suggest they use cooldowns next time since it's technically unsolicited advice. And if you ask first yet they say nothing. What then? You have no way to communicate the issue unless you directly tell them what they've doing wrong and how they can fix it. Or you simply kick them.

[HyoMinPark]

Sounds like a them problem.

Also, as I've actually said (several times now), a lot of it just depends. If it seems as though the person doing the learning (making the mistakes, what-have-you) is open to learning or in a learning environment, i would as if they wanted any tips, pointers, extra guidance, etc. If we use our last interaction as an example, I would simply start with "may I offer a correction?" To me, there is nothing about this that is "tip-toe'ing" or "walking on eggshells" as you put. If yes, I would proceed to correct. If no, i would not. For me, the important thing is not offering unsolicited advice. I am not against all advice, only the presumptive stance that I (or anyone else for that matter) should listen to you regardless of what you have to say. I just believe that unsolicited advice is rude. Always. The end. None of these arguments are remotely good enough to mitigate its rudeness in my opinion. And if that's a problem for you then like... idk what to tell ya lol. Guess i'll continue to be part of the problem. *shrug*

If you want tips, by all means, go find tips. There are plenty and to spare. Some good, some not so good, but there are more than enough sources of information for any seeker to plumb. I think this is part of my disconnect with the community as well. While I generally have very little faith in people who do offer advice, I do give them enough credit to suspect they are on track to finding the truth. I guess it has a lot to do with how i view learning and how I learn myself.

So yeah, agree to disagree it is then.

The ironic thing is that I’ve seen it more times than I could count: players who never explicitly ask for advice when it came to a rotation or to a boss/fight mechanic—but the minute we wipe and someone happens to mention “Hey, Alliance A, you guys didn’t do X mechanic. Make sure you have Y amount of people on that pad over there to keep us from getting the bleed because it hurts”—and then Alliance A starts screaming in the chat: “WELL NO ONE TOLD US THAT WAS WHAT NEEDED TO BE DONE.” “WE HAVE A LOT OF NEW PEOPLE THAT DON’T KNOW THE MECHANICS.” “WHY DID NO ONE EXPLAIN THEM TO US.” This is always after no one has ever spoke up about needing help or not knowing what was going on.

Just because someone doesn’t directly ask for advice doesn’t mean that they aren’t open to it, or that any and all advice would be unsolicited. I’ve had more people get angry with me for not explaining mechanics right off the bat when they remained silent when asked “anyone want to know mechs?” or “everyone know how this goes?” for not telling them what to do when we wipe.

I think you really need to think about how you seem to come off as willing to allow others to impose on the time of randoms. You said in the beginning that “no one owes anyone anything”, but that’s not really true. When you’re playing a collaborative game, you are imposing on others’ time and they are imposing on yours. You owe at least a basic level of respect, and, for me, that would be performing in such a way to not be a detriment. And this extends beyond my personal performance. No one is expecting 99 or 100 percentile performance in Expert. They just want basic competence. And for players to accept any advice or criticism gracefully, even if they don’t really want to hear it. You mention how you were raised—well, that’s how I was raised. I was also raised that helping people and offering them advice isn’t inherently rude or presumptuous. So long as you are respectful in giving it, you aren’t being a jerk.

How do you even know that this is the reason why they implement Very Easy mode on solo instances? How do you even confirm that "majority even had trouble clearing fights with only 4-5 buttons to press"? Do you have any data to back this up? Or a link where the developers said this specifically?

Maybe it's just there for convenience sake? And not some tacit acknowledgement that they consider most or majority of their players are foolish simpletons incapable of playing the game with 4-5 buttons to press? I mean really........... I'm sorry, but the way some of you are viewing others playing the same game as you... "woa the *majority* are fools, not me though!*, quite frankly, rubs me the wrong way.

Another older post, but I’m slowly making my way towards the current posts of this thread lol.

I’d say it’s less “the majority” and more “a very vocal minority”. That said, your forum join date tells me that you likely weren’t around back in 4.4 and 4.5 when there was thread after thread complaining that Will of the Moon and then last solo instance of SB were “too hard” and “impossible to clear” and “needed to be nerfed”. There was a very substantial thread just about the Will of the Moon instance that continued to get bumped several months after 4.4 had released. The instance wasn’t hard by any stretch, but players failing the instance suffered from rotational and mechanical failures that they didn’t seem willing to acknowledge when they were pointed out.

To add on to this, there have been significant amounts (from, at the very least, the most vocal of vocal) of complaints about content being “too hard” and “needing to be nerfed”. From when I joined this game in HW, I’ve seen people demand that: Ozma in Weeping City be nerfed, Nidhogg in Final Steps of Faith (Story Mode) be nerfed, Dun Scaith be nerfed (most bosses in there), Shinryu (Story Mode—even when the fight had been out for a year plus, and most people overgeared it), Rabanastre be nerfed (mostly Hashmal), Ridorana be nerfed (Construct 8 too hard), Orbonne Monastery be nerfed (literally the only 24-man that gives automatic Echo because people struggled so much with TGC—which wasn’t even a difficult fight if one just paid attention to mechanics), Will of the Moon solo instance be nerfed, final SB solo instance be nerfed, Castrum Fluminis (Story Mode) be nerfed...

The list goes on.

[AngelCheese77]

The ironic thing is that I’ve seen it more times than I could count: players who never explicitly ask for advice when it came to a rotation or to a boss/fight mechanic—but the minute we wipe and someone happens to mention “Hey, Alliance A, you guys didn’t do X mechanic. Make sure you have Y amount of people on that pad over there to keep us from getting the bleed because it hurts”—and then Alliance A starts screaming in the chat: “WELL NO ONE TOLD US THAT WAS WHAT NEEDED TO BE DONE.” “WE HAVE A LOT OF NEW PEOPLE THAT DON’T KNOW THE MECHANICS.” “WHY DID NO ONE EXPLAIN THEM TO US.” This is always after no one has ever spoke up about needing help or not knowing what was going on.

Just because someone doesn’t directly ask for advice doesn’t mean that they aren’t open to it, or that any and all advice would be unsolicited. I’ve had more people get angry with me for not explaining mechanics right off the bat when they remained silent when asked “anyone want to know mechs?” or “everyone know how this goes?” for not telling them what to do when we wipe.

I think you really need to think about how you seem to come off as willing to allow others to impose on the time of randoms. You said in the beginning that “no one owes anyone anything”, but that’s not really true. When you’re playing a collaborative game, you are imposing on others’ time and they are imposing on yours. You owe at least a basic level of respect, and, for me, that would be performing in such a way to not be a detriment. And this extends beyond my personal performance. No one is expecting 99 or 100 percentile performance in Expert. They just want basic competence. And for players to accept any advice or criticism gracefully, even if they don’t really want to hear it. You mention how you were raised—well, that’s how I was raised. I was also raised that helping people and offering them advice isn’t inherently rude or presumptuous. So long as you are respectful in giving it, you aren’t being a jerk.

If I could slap on a million thumbs up on this quote above, I would. It's just ... perfect.

[Melichoir]

I think some need to get it out of their head that a player offering advice is the same as “calling someone out” and “publicly shaming” them.

It's counter intuitive but we need to actually stop coddling players overall and just being frank. Players who face no adversity will be the ones who are quickest to cry when they run into a speedbump. There are a lot of players, IMO, who go into savage for the first time and have a bad time because they dont read guides, dont try to learn their class, and dont read boss strats, but expect it to be as difficult or forgiving as non extreme content, maybe with a small bit of flare. They fail to realize that Savage and Ultimate content is a lot more party centric - Someone screwing up could potentially wipe everyone. That you cant just shrug your shoulders and be like "Well it was only a death or two." They dont realize that a death or two can actually make the difference between a clear and a wipe.

Now I dont mean we need to be hard asses about it either. But as I consistnetly pointed out, we need to just be polite but frank with players. Tell them whats up, and be willing to help them improve. There's a fundamental difference between saying "Look, were a bit low on DPS, so we should really work on cleaning up mechanics and not dying. Anyone have questions or having trouble?," and saying "You all suck and are trash. F-ing casuals ruining hte game. go read a guide or uninstall. Clean up or GTFO.".

And speaking from personal experience, most veteran players are pretty chill. If you go into something green, are not great at mechanics or your class, but are willing and wanting to improve, most vets are more than happy to give you pro tips and the like. The issue that is usually a problem is the casual who sees any advice as an attack. Conversely, if you are a casual avoid parties with elitists. You can see them usually with PF reqs that say something like 'Clear group - will kick if you mess up more than twice" kind of nonsense. Whenever Ive seen and handled groups like this, its usually the PL who is toxic and screws up a ton. Join up with fresh prog parties that are chill. Just be courteous and watch a video before hand so you have a basic grip on teh fight. Please please pleaaaase dont join a prog or clear party if youve never seen the fight. Just be honest and open with people. Most players are pretty chill.

[Destinova]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH It is a game, lets have fun. If you can not do the fight use your resources become better, if you can do the fight lift up the other players and help them out.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Guess i'll continue to be part of the problem.

At least you aren't blind to your situation.

[Katie_Kitty]

then how come no one cleared the Orbonne Monastery in week 1?

W-what..? What the heck are you talking about? We were clearing orbonne monastery with a full group of complete randoms in duty finder day 1. I spent most of that first week running it over and over again in the little time I had trying to get the tank chest piece. "How come no one cleared the Orbonne Monastery in week 1?"?? What?

[Bopsheezi]

This thread shows the real toxicity of the GCBTW. When elitists and casuals mix.

[LaughingBanana]

This thread shows the real toxicity of the GCBTW. When elitists and casuals mix.

I'm sorry, but what is GCBTW?

[Vahlnir]

I'm sorry, but what is GCBTW?

"Great Community By The Way", apparently. I had to look it up myself. Them young whippersnappers are creating new abbreviations every day it seems.