The tawdry female bosses are tiresome, and we could do with more male fanservice.

[Alleo]

Its hard to convey feminine beauty with non humanoid features.

Why would they need to convey that? I am fine with bosses that are good looking waifu material but imo not every female boss need to convey some beauty. Let them be ugly too. (Otherwise you might create some strange combination like the last dungeon boss that is a monstrous female who seemingly still needed breasts..even though they make no sense since she lays eggs and the men take care of the babies..)

[Lersayil]

Why would they need to convey that? I am fine with bosses that are good looking waifu material but imo not every female boss need to convey some beauty. Let them be ugly too. (Otherwise you might create some strange combination like the last dungeon boss that is a monstrous female who seemingly still needed breasts..even though they make no sense since she lays eggs and the men take care of the babies..)

Actually that last boss is exactly what people want in this thread, no? If you take away the breasts, its just an androgynous fish person. Sure, they're probably biologically redundant (or who knows, there might be more eggs in there), but how else do you work in its gender into its visual design?

Guess I should rework my original statement: its hard to make non humanoid race genders distinct without using traditionally humanoid features. For the avarage Joe anyways, that only has a rudimentary working knowledge of biology.

As for humanoids getting uglier... we're in a JRPG. Ugly characters are few and far between in this trope, and usually need their own model when they do show up (and I think we used up the custom model budget for this expansion on Vauthry and Miss Chai).

[Roda]

Actually that last boss is exactly what people want in this thread, no? If you take away the breasts, its just an androgynous fish person. Sure, they're probably biologically redundant (or who knows, there might be more eggs in there), but how else do you work in its gender into its visual design?

Guess I should rework my original statement: its hard to make non humanoid race genders distinct without using traditionally humanoid features. For the avarage Joe anyways, that only has a rudimentary working knowledge of biology.

As for humanoids getting uglier... we're in a JRPG. Ugly characters are few and far between in this trope, and usually need their own model when they do show up (and I think we used up the custom model budget for this expansion on Vauthry and Miss Chai).

Her over all design is good, but the breasts are just confusing. I don't think It was even a "these are boobies" mistake since she doesn't wear some kind of fish bra to cover up her fish nipples that feed her fish babies. I think those were there cause she's fat, and that's how we are used to distributing fat on bipedal bodies, even though it's really only a simian thing to place fat deposits directly on the mammaries/over the pectorials. She really shouldn't've had them.

And taking away the breasts wouldn't make her not a female. She has explicitly the role of mother for her people. She uses feminine pronouns. Story and context makes her a woman. Ifrit or Bismark doesn't need to have a full beard to be referred to as a male so why would non-human female creatures need human secondary sex characteristics when the male ones don't?


(also Dulia is adorable and I love her, but she iiiis partially using the lalafel body and rig so it's not wholy new)

so what is wrong about the games industry other than games being pretty bad currently, I have no idea really.

https://www.pcgamer.com/multiple-ubisoft-executives-step-down-amid-workplace-abuse-allegations/

[craybest]

i don't think female characters have to "convey feminine beauty" any more than male characters need to "convey masculine beauty" IMO.

[Eldevern]

For non-mammals, it is actually strange they have breasts. But well... on the other hand, humans in the game don't have nipples.

[Skivvy]

For non-mammals, it is actually strange they have breasts. But well... on the other hand, humans in the game don't have nipples.

Bunch of freaks, the lot of us.

[Lersayil]

Her over all design is good, but the breasts are just confusing. I don't think It was even a "these are boobies" mistake since she doesn't wear some kind of fish bra to cover up her fish nipples that feed her fish babies. I think those were there cause she's fat, and that's how we are used to distributing fat on bipedal bodies, even though it's really only a simian thing to place fat deposits directly on the mammaries/over the pectorials. She really shouldn't've had them.

And taking away the breasts wouldn't make her not a female. She has explicitly the role of mother for her people. She uses feminine pronouns. Story and context makes her a woman. Ifrit or Bismark doesn't need to have a full beard to be referred to as a male so why would non-human female creatures need human secondary sex characteristics when the male ones don't?


(also Dulia is adorable and I love her, but she iiiis partially using the lalafel body and rig so it's not wholy new)




https://www.pcgamer.com/multiple-ubi...e-allegations/

Hmm. Honestly we might be overthinking fantasy anatomy. I think its a case of show not tell. Many languages aren't as gendered as english, and in many cases we don't have voices to rely on. We associate fertility and motherhood with body traits that Rukshs Dheem exhibits. Compounding themes with looks is a simple enough way to push them when you don't want to, or don't have time to develop them in more intricate ways.

Ifrit and Bismark didn't really need such features, as they were strictly non-humanoid, and their gender never really mattered to the story or the themes / gods / beliefs they represented. Bismark for all intents and purposes could've been whatever gender and no one would notice. Same for Ifrit, but then he had a voice.

EDIT: but frankly yeah, we have a lot of scantily clad female bosses. I don't think the count vs males / monsters is that bad (though I was lazy to count), but in the end its a jrpg and an MMO. Even with the likely above avg of female players compared to other such games, catering mostly to the majority male audience is surprising to no one.

[Roda]

Hmm. Honestly we might be overthinking fantasy anatomy. I think its a case of show not tell. Many languages aren't as gendered as english, and in many cases we don't have voices to rely on. We associate fertility and motherhood with body traits that Rukshs Dheem exhibits. Compounding themes with looks is a simple enough way to push them when you don't want to, or don't have time to develop them in more intricate ways.

Idk, out of place fish boobies don't really tell a good story? Especially since they are visually useless (no fish nipple or fish suggestion of fish nipple). A better way to display she was a brood mother would be to decorate her stage with fish brood props. Piles of fish eggs along the edges, carrying young in her fish mouth, that kind of thing.... 'cause she's a fish not a human, and I'm looking for fish tells of fish motherhood.

Ifrit and Bismark didn't really need such features, as they were strictly non-humanoid, and their gender never really mattered to the story or the themes / gods / beliefs they represented. Bismark for all intents and purposes could've been whatever gender and no one would notice. Same for Ifrit, but then he had a voice.

But that's the point. They don't have or need those features and yet we all still refer to them as males. It's really as simple as that. We're smart enough to not need to impose human body expectations on non-human monsters, and doing so kind of robs us of new and unique worldbuilding.

[Lersayil]

Idk, out of place fish boobies don't really tell a good story? Especially since they are visually useless (no fish nipple or fish suggestion of fish nipple). A better way to display she was a brood mother would be to decorate her stage with fish brood props. Piles of fish eggs along the edges, carrying young in her fish mouth, that kind of thing.... 'cause she's a fish not a human, and I'm looking for fish tells of fish motherhood.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the fish people weren't living in the dungeon were they? I had the impression they recently invaded the place to plunder it for creation magic blueprints. Hence the lack of any decorations, only a few barricades. Anyways the fish boobies weren't there to tell a story, just to make the character easily identifiable, as a random fish person mother figure, not worth building anatomical lore around for its one scene.

But that's the point. They don't have or need those features and yet we all still refer to them as males. It's really as simple as that. We're smart enough to not need to impose human body expectations on non-human monsters, and doing so kind of robs us of new and unique worldbuilding.

We refer to them as male, because the english language is obsessed with referring to monstrous god figures with their genders, and because we're told their gender. But other than arbitrarily knowing their gender, it plays no role in their themes, thus, its not pushed in any other visual way.

Would it matter at all if you switched Bismarks gender? Does it matter what gender many of the regular nameless mobs we slay are? Would it matter or count if someone told us Cuchulainn is a female? My argument is, that in case of the more monstrous foes, many times we're just not told, and have to rely on visuals, and if it doesn't have any human-like feminine features, we presume its male.

Also... damn, just realized that only Garuda had a voice of the OG 3?

[Melichoir]

Idk, out of place fish boobies don't really tell a good story? Especially since they are visually useless (no fish nipple or fish suggestion of fish nipple). A better way to display she was a brood mother would be to decorate her stage with fish brood props. Piles of fish eggs along the edges, carrying young in her fish mouth, that kind of thing.... 'cause she's a fish not a human, and I'm looking for fish tells of fish motherhood.

Two things:

One - this thread has been pruned at least once in the last 24 hours, so keep that in mind people...

Two - To play devils advocate, arent you imposing your views of what a "Fish person" should be? That they need clutches, brood pups, and the like. Carrying things by the mouth, etc. These are your interpretations of what a fish person should be. Considering its a fantasy race and considering...

that we know some of the pre-existing beast tribe races are artificial races created by the Allag empire

who is to say they would not have breasts or other modifiers we commonly relate to being female. Dont get me wrong, more variety in creature and race design would be interesting, just that I think the mental approach of "Well this is what an actual fish would do, so therefore fish people in FFXIV should do this" runs into the same issue as giving them boobs - giving characteristics to a fantasy race assuming they should operate like real life analogues. Youre just doing it from the other side of the spectrum, the animal side, not the humanoid side.