6.0 Both Tank and Healers Need Major Focus on Bringing Back Job Identity

[bundythenoob]

The passive mitigation we gain from our mastery trait is rather pointless anyway since the tank damage bosses do is already adjusted for the trait, so we're not really taking less damage.
I do quite like the idea, maybe I'm biased because I liked WAR's huge HP pool. They would however have to remove or severely nerf Darkside though, you can't just give DRK a flat 10% damage buff.

well I would say that Darkside should stay, thus giving DRK 20% damage, but this would only be to offset their lower defence value compared to the other tanks. this would allow for smart usage of tbn and other cooldowns to shine further. but yeah if it proves too strong, i guess darkside could be changed to only activate when tank stance is off? thus they always have a way to access 10% dmg to make up for the lack of other passives.

Perhaps change their tank stance to give 20% magic mitigation instead of 10% damage? idk, just some quick thoughts to try and bring back the class identity through their stances

[Kazukiyashuo]

if it was in the toolkit and its not anymore its a loss, regardless of what you think.

scholar lost bane but you just brushed it off for whatever reason despite sch needing something to spend aetherflows on during pulls.

wether smn lost or kept shadowflare is inconsequential to the conversation because theyre separate jobs and sch still ultimately lost the skill, and nothing to replace its niche. (gave slow to mobs to mitigate damage during pulls and most importantly it was a cooldown to look out for when executing their rotation.

scholar still lost miasma 1, despite smn keeping it.

finally just because you in your Grey-tness didnt use skills like miasma ii or fey wind, doesn't mean others didn't use or like them.

sch also lost the ability to use fairy skills without using a weave spot and to cast embrace on whichever target they desired



if you seriously think all scholar lost was "2 dots", you were never a good scholar to begin with.

Art of war adds up the dmg of baned dots. You dont have to be einstein to get that. Using fey wind on your party really made u a good sch.NOT!And for the last time both slow pool on the ground and alteration of gcd removed from all afected jobs by SE, its not just sch loss. If u cant accept that its your problem. They ve been removed for a reason.

[Absurdity]

Perhaps change their tank stance to give 20% magic mitigation instead of 10% damage? idk, just some quick thoughts to try and bring back the class identity through their stances

This would atleast play into the idea of DRK being the magic mitigation tank, because currently only Dark Mind has mitigation for a specific damage type.
I would be fine with some tanks being better for certain encounters than others, I just doubt SE is.

Art of war adds up the dmg of baned dots. You dont have to be einstein to get that. Using fey wind on your party really made u a good sch.NOT!And for the last time both slow pool on the ground and alteration of gcd removed from all afected jobs by SE, its not just sch loss. If u cant accept that its your problem. They ve been removed for a reason.

I've said this before, maybe it does add up to the same potency, maybe it doesn't, I can't be bothered to do the math. Fact is, SCH still lost two other sources of aoe damage.

I feel like I'm repeating myself but just stating that SE removed haste buffs and slow effects neither explains why SCH didn't get a replacement for them nor is it an argument for why losing those skills without said replacement is a good thing.
Using Fey Wind alone didn't make you a good SCH but managing your party buff optimally was part of being a good SCH.
Sorry but "SCH losing skills is good because I say it's good" is a pretty terrible argument.

[QooEr]

Art of war adds up the dmg of baned dots. You dont have to be einstein to get that.

yes, people dont like that scholar's aoe turned into a 1 button rotation. might as well replace all the rotations with 1 button that says "do damage".

and REGARDLESS, there is still nothing to spend aetherflows during mob pulls where healing isnt needed, which you conveniently ignored

Using fey wind on your party really made u a good sch.NOT!.

using a job's whole kit is what separates mediocre players from good ones. its not that hard to comprehend. theres a reason speedkills used fey wind.

And for the last time both slow pool on the ground and alteration of gcd removed from all afected jobs by SE, its not just sch loss. If u cant accept that its your problem. They ve been removed for a reason.

"its not just scholar's loss" does not mean "its not scholars loss". scholar still lost the skills and received nothing to make up for the loss in GAMEPLAY DEPTH. if you cannot comprehend that i dont know what to tell you. if they wanted to get rid of haste buffs they could've changed fey winds effect, but instead they just deleted selene

have you wondered why people never mention rouse, despite scholar losing that skill too? its because they got a skill that filled that niche (buffing your summon), summon seraph.

people are unhappy that scholar lost skills and got nothing in return to fill the niches they satisfied, wether it's a cooldown or a dot or a ground aoe.

[Kazukiyashuo]

yes, people dont like that scholar's aoe turned into a 1 button rotation. might as well replace all the rotations with 1 button that says "do damage".

and REGARDLESS, there is still nothing to spend aetherflows during mob pulls where healing isnt needed, which you conveniently ignored


using a job's whole kit is what separates mediocre players from good ones. its not that hard to comprehend. theres a reason speedkills used fey wind.



"its not just scholar's loss" does not mean "its not scholars loss". scholar still lost the skills and received nothing to make up for the loss in GAMEPLAY DEPTH. if you cannot comprehend that i dont know what to tell you. if they wanted to get rid of haste buffs they could've changed fey winds effect, but instead they just deleted selene

have you wondered why people never mention rouse, despite scholar losing that skill too? its because they got a skill that filled that niche (buffing your summon), summon seraph.

people are unhappy that scholar lost skills and got nothing in return to fill the niches they satisfied, wether it's a cooldown or a dot or a ground aoe.

I didnt ingored anything , u have energy drain to use aetherflow stacks. Bane is removed for obvioua reasons.
Ppl are unhappy all the time. Thats my point. When their class recieves changes, are unhappy. And this is happening on every expansion. Creating 100 of posts how healing is boring is stupid and worthless. Changes to every class will happen either u like it or not. Take it or leave it. Noone forces u to play healer or Sch cause u think that with miasma 2 and slow debuff u were more busy and happy

[Billythepancake]

I didnt ingored anything , u have energy drain to use aetherflow stacks. Bane is removed for obvioua reasons.
Ppl are unhappy all the time. Thats my point. When their class recieves changes, are unhappy. And this is happening on every expansion. Creating 100 of posts how healing is boring is stupid and worthless. Changes to every class will happen either u like it or not. Take it or leave it. Noone forces u to play healer or Sch cause u think that with miasma 2 and slow debuff u were more busy and happy

"obvious" reasons. Care to elaborate or is your galaxy brain going to say something along the lines of "it's so obvious I shouldn't even NEED to say it hyuk hyuk". I've said it in another post and I'll say it here as well. Change CAN be good. I am not opposed to change, however, let me hit you with a scenario.

Let's say, you come home from work/school/whatever and at the table waiting for you is pizza, you love pizza, and for awhile it's amazing. After awhile you decide it's time to change so you tell your spouse/mom/whoever is making it for you that you'd like to try something different, but that has a similar feel, as you do really enjoy the pizza, you just think it's time to take it up a notch. So the next day you come in and they pooped on your plate with their defense being "yOu JuSt DoN't LiKe ChAnGe!!!!" Obviously that has nothing to do with it, you just don't want poop. That 's what the changes are, they're poop.

I also like to bring up the equivalent exchange, if they're going to take something away there needs to be something of equal or greater value to take it's place. 1 change I'm okay with is the loss of the critlo spread, because in exchange we got recitation which is an amazing ability. Do I miss the critlo spread at points? sure, it can sting a bit, but, I got something so good in return that I cannot bring myself to complain about it. What was gained for Selene? nothing. What was gained for Miasma? nothing. What was gained for bane? nothing. What was gained for eye for an eye? nothing. What was gained for quickened aetherflow? nothing. What was gained for Shadow Flare? nothing.What was gained for cleric stance? nothing. What was gained for miasma II? Art of War, which is worse. Sure, it does more damage in AoE situations, but it has a lot less uses. The worst part if they had ADDED art of war, instead of replacing Miasma II with it, I'd have said it was a great addition because it would've made our AoE rotation better and similar in feel to our ST, it had real potential but they threw it away.

But your biggest focus on SCH has been the DPS and people complaining about that, granted, I've seen a lot of people being vocal about the DPS abilities lost, and rightfully so, they're a huge part about why I loved the class, but let's talk about the OTHER huge issue with ShB SCH, the fairy. Let's start with Selene. Give me one good reason why they outright deleted Selene, and no the excuse of "she was niche and her uses were limited" is not a good reason. Titan was also niche and had limited use, but instead of outright deleting him, they let SMN keep that pet and reworked it to be more useful while also being unique, they just didn't care enough about SCH to give them the same attention and it was a lot easier to just delete a pet. The excuse of "well her buff would throw off people's rotations is bad!" is also not going to hold water, because, you can change the buff, we have the technology believe it or not, SE just didn't want to put in the effort. Let's also not forget that you now have to weave in your pet abilities, the embrace was nerfed to being so laughably weak that you may as well not even have it, you have no say who she embraces either is she going to embrace the tank who actually needs a heal or the DPS who's missing 10hp? Who knows! I have absolutely 0 say in the matter. Let's also not forget that she is so ridiculously unresponsive now. Not only do I have to weave her in, but I have to wait up to 10 seconds for her to even decide "okay, now I feel like casting this ability" which was NEVER an issue from what I played in SB, and that's even if she decides to use it at all, she can flat out refuse to use the ability and just eat the CD, in what POSSIBLE way is any of this a positive change? In SB you told fairy to do something and she did this amazing thing, she just did it WHAT AN INNOVATION! imagine pressing a button and something just HAPPENING and not having to wait for the AI to decide it can do it whenever the fuck it wants. That is a flat out worse change.

The excuse of "yOu JuSt DoN't LiKe ChAnGe" doesn't work when it is a flat out worse change in every conceivable way. The only good thing that SCH got this expac that I would genuinely miss is recitation. Other than that, take literally everything else away and replace it with SB SCH. This was not a good change, it was laughably pathetic. You're free to like it if you want, and more power to you if you do, but just because something changed doesn't make it positive or negative. A lot of people recognize when changes need to happen, and they welcome good change (see that nobody fights to have 1.0 BRD with ammo, because getting rid of that was a POSITIVE change)

[QooEr]

I didnt ingored anything , u have energy drain to use aetherflow stacks. Bane is removed for obvioua reasons.
Ppl are unhappy all the time. Thats my point. When their class recieves changes, are unhappy. And this is happening on every expansion. Creating 100 of posts how healing is boring is stupid and worthless. Changes to every class will happen either u like it or not. Take it or leave it. Noone forces u to play healer or Sch cause u think that with miasma 2 and slow debuff u were more busy and happy

i said for aoe. using energy drains on aoe packs is extremely unrewarding.

while one cannot please everyone and there will always be someone who doesn't like something, it doesn't magically make negative feedback useless. everyone knows changes are going to happen but that doesn't mean all change is good and everything the devs put out is perfect. shb lilies were a good change to healers, pruning dps skills was not.

and its funny that you say that because i in fact do not play scholar. i used to like playing it in stormblood but since shb i never bothered doing savage with it. a lot of people stopped playing the jobs they liked playing and switched to white mage or some other role completely because its just not fun for them anymore, yet you seem to think that is somehow good and preferable.

[Kazukiyashuo]

i said for aoe. using energy drains on aoe packs is extremely unrewarding.

while one cannot please everyone and there will always be someone who doesn't like something, it doesn't magically make negative feedback useless. everyone knows changes are going to happen but that doesn't mean all change is good and everything the devs put out is perfect. shb lilies were a good change to healers, pruning dps skills was not.

and its funny that you say that because i in fact do not play scholar. i used to like playing it in stormblood but since shb i never bothered doing savage with it. a lot of people stopped playing the jobs they liked playing and switched to white mage or some other role completely because its just not fun for them anymore, yet you seem to think that is somehow good and preferable.

The problem is that in every expansion there ppl unhappy with the changes their main job received. And thats fine. Making 100 of posts about ruined healers and boring and useless, not reflecting the truth at all. Healers always had 2 dots 1 aoe and 1 single target spell. The only exception was scholar that had 2 more dots and a ruin 2 to weave. Bane is obviously removed cause its use was to spread dots foe aoe dmg, since sch didnt have aoe spells like gravity and holy. Now they got ART OF WAR. This sums up the dmg of shared dots with bane. So he is like other healer now ,he got an aoe spell( not to mention its instant cast and that really cool). Also scholar kept his ruin 2 to weave and other healers has no skill to compensate for that. So instead of just look the changes with some logic( yeah its hard to that for some ppl). They are crying for loosing skills without a reason. Slow debuff removed from casters and now tanks and dps apply it. Fey light removed from game entirely including astro card that was modifying at.speed cause it was a skill that had barely good use cause it was causing derail on certain jobs rotations. So the only loss if u count it as a loss is miasma 1 and 2. Fk logic. Lets fill the forums with how healers are boring since now we dont spread the dots but we got art of war like other healers. Healers were always that simple in skills cause their main job is to heal not to dps. If i were a sch i would thank instead for letting me use ruin 2. Not cry about other changes. If they need to be fair they need to remove ruin 2 cause it adds extra mobility to sch to be in par with the other healers. Make sch again great and engaging. Lmao dude. U need to search something else , cause sch was never engaging dps wise. And it will never be. Its pure logic and math, unless u found engaging pressing 3 buttons instead of 1 to do aoe dmg. Omg these forum guys

[ItMe]

unless u found engaging pressing 3 buttons instead of 1 to do aoe dmg. Omg these forum guys

As far as I can tell that IS what people are asking for.
More buttons to push.
More things to juggle.
If there's more to do you're too busy to be bored, even if you're doing something that's ultimately simple.

[Billythepancake]

snip

For someone who claims it was so simple, you're not very good at it, and I'm sure if I looked up what you did in SB or HW I'd be even less impressed, but, let's actually head into this.

"only having 2 more dots didn't make things less boring" is what your statement boils down to, and sure, if they were like SMN dots I can see how someone could come to that conclusion. SMN will always reapply bio and miasma at the same time seeing as how they have the exact same timer, there is 0 reason not to. That was not the case for SCH, all your dots had different timers, this meant if you were doing your job and keeping all your dots up and refreshing them when they needed to be refreshed, you had to break your broil casts much more often to use Miasma, miasma II, shadow flare, and whatever other dots they had in HW. This meant you had more timers to watch, more to keep track of, and more to do. Was it the most complex thing in the world? absolutely not, was it more than they have now? absolutely. That's not including timers like SB cleric stance, so add that to the list as well. (also this nonsense of your main job is to heal, your main job is to keep people alive. If you're doing your job well you should be spending anywhere from 70-90% of all your casts on DPS. People do not need to be at full at all times to be alive, the only HP that matters is the last one) And yes, keeping up with all those timers and using them all exactly when you needed to was engaging, especially for me, I'm a slut for dots, I love dots, shower me in dots, give me 10 dots and I'd still want more, because keeping that shit up and refreshing them at the right times is so satisfying to me. And SCH did have an AoE spell like gravity and holy BTW, it was Miasma II, and it was better than Art of War, perhaps not in damage, but in versatility it sure was. Weaving with Miasma II added to SCH's risk/reward gameplay, something that SCH could call its own. You had Selene, Miasma II, bane, energy drain, and shadow flare all feed into this idea of "you can use this for more DPS, but it comes at a cost of you having weaker heals, so if you use them be very sure you can" and that shit is fucking top, I'm all about that. Risk/reward is some of the most satisfying game design there is, and SCH barely has any left, with that only being in ED which they had to BEG for over a month to have back because SE has no idea what they're doing with healers and thought aetherflow would somehow work as a mechanic without a DPS skilled tied to it. (in case you forgot, it didn't, aetherflow was actually a useless mechanic without ED, something anyone with the most basic understanding of SCH could tell you, but somehow SE was shocked to learn that SCHs needed, really shows you how well they understand healers doesn't it) Miasma II had the risk of being a better weave than Ruin II, but it had the cost of A) more MP spent and B)you had to get close to the boss. ED has the risk of spending an aetherflow for damage, an aetheflow you now cannot spend on a heal, so be sure you're not going to need it, shadow flare had the risk of not being able to be put down along side Sacred Soil, meaning down shadow flare while sacred was out sacred would disappear, so make sure you don't need that mitigation, bane had the same risk as energy drain more damage at the cost of an aetherflow, meaning you had to be sure you weren't going to need that heal.

These were all a part of SCH's DPS loop, not just "haha miasma go brrrr" timers and risk/reward. And this garbage of "it's not fair that SCH gets to have something but the other healers don't" is nonsense. Why should any class be a copy-paste of another class. The entire point of having separate classes is to play one that fits your taste. And yes, the other two healer do have weaving options BTW, AST has malefic, every single malefic gives them a free window for an oGCD weave, they also have lightspeed for movement as well as more weaving. WHM has lilies, slightly different from ruin II but they fulfill the same purposes.

As for "fey wind bad because giving classes SS can ruin rotations!" then why didn't they just change the buff? Believe it or not SE has that technology, they are perfectly capable of changing what fey wind buffs, it could've upped damage, crit chance, DH chance, be a % up to det, it could've been an AoE attack on a CD, or any number of things, so why did SE take the laziest route possible and just delete it? Because Selene was niche? Then why does SMN get to keep titan who was also niche and who SE DID rework? You want to know the answer? Because they don't care enough about healers to give them the same type of treatment.

You also haven't told me why moving the fairies over to oGCDs and making their AI rock bottom stupid and outright ghosting your abilities is a good change. Still waiting for that explanation from your galaxy brain.