"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Laesha]

I don't understand the viewpoint that other people owe you effort. I just don't. I may not be the very best, but i try to play optimally. I check my numbers (with an abacus, of course). I sometimes visit the site which shall not be named to see if any random person uploads my performances. I like to think that whenever i'm with a group that there are always small things i can do to perform better and thus contribute more.

But if i'm alone, the only person i can control is me. I don't care how badly other players perform, because there's no way to control that. If i'm the only dps doing any damage and i'm stuck with an ice-mage, I don't sit there and waste more of my time giving someone unsolicited advice. I just shut up and carry harder. I just don't think they owe me what other people might consider to be a good performance. If it's as bad as all that, i just leave and try again later.

If i want something faster or more guaranteed, I use the tools that the game provides me with to do that. I talk to people on my friend's list. Maybe if it's a matter of removing a single bad performer I will vote to do so. I just don't think any approach that requires other people to listen to what I have to say is appropriate or necessary. I guess if it's really important to you to speak up, that's fine. but i have no sympathy when the replies they receive are stabby. You don't get to talk and then say the other player doesn't get to respond however they respond. I sit firmly on the side of what this video calls "casualism"

[Lucy_Pyre]

Is it really too much to ask of the playerbase to actually play properly or take in reasonable advice?

For this game's community? Yes.

[Shalan]

I don't understand the viewpoint that other people owe you effort. I just don't. I may not be the very best, but i try to play optimally. I check my numbers (with an abacus, of course). I sometimes visit the site which shall not be named to see if any random person uploads my performances. I like to think that whenever i'm with a group that there are always small things i can do to perform better and thus contribute more.

But if i'm alone, the only person i can control is me. I don't care how badly other players perform, because there's no way to control that. If i'm the only dps doing any damage and i'm stuck with an ice-mage, I don't sit there and waste more of my time giving someone unsolicited advice. I just shut up and carry harder. I just don't think they owe me what other people might consider to be a good performance. If it's as bad as all that, i just leave and try again later.

If i want something faster or more guaranteed, I use the tools that the game provides me with to do that. I talk to people on my friend's list. Maybe if it's a matter of removing a single bad performer I will vote to do so. I just don't think any approach that requires other people to listen to what I have to say is appropriate or necessary. I guess if it's really important to you to speak up, that's fine. but i have no sympathy when the replies they receive are stabby. You don't get to talk and then say the other player doesn't get to respond however they respond. I sit firmly on the side of what this video calls "casualism"

It's a cultural thing I suppose.

To me, using something like Duty Finder is entering a sort of social contract in which we attempt to achieve a shared goal (the dungeon/instance). Because we're operating as a group, it falls on each player to, at the very least, put forth a basic understanding of how their role/class operates and carry their share of the "weight" in the party. It's simply the responsible thing to do. This means things like combos/rotations, CD cycling, DPSing when no healing required, etc.

Anything less than this basic game play shows that you have entered the group with the intent of completing the goal without carrying your share of the effort, and therefore you want to leech off the efforts of others. It shows a severe lack of respect both to the other players and their time.

Sometimes there are players who just don't understand something, and that's fine. If they're willing to learn you can instruct them on the issue(s). But often times they're not and will either ignore any advice or actively deride you for giving it. In this case, the mask comes off and they've shown they don't care about you or your time, you're just a vehicle for them to leech off of till the dungeon is over. And we should not be promoting that kind of behavior in the game. It's no less toxic than the toxicity of elitists, but still there are people that will give it a pass for some reason.

[Goji1639]

It's a cultural thing I suppose.

To me, using something like Duty Finder is entering a sort of social contract in which we attempt to achieve a shared goal (the dungeon/instance). Because we're operating as a group, it falls on each player to, at the very least, put forth a basic understanding of how their role/class operates and carry their share of the "weight" in the party. It's simply the responsible thing to do. This means things like combos/rotations, CD cycling, DPSing when no healing required, etc.

Anything less than this basic game play shows that you have entered the group with the intent of completing the goal without carrying your share of the effort, and therefore you want to leech off the efforts of others. It shows a severe lack of respect both to the other players and their time.

Sometimes there are players who just don't understand something, and that's fine. If they're willing to learn you can instruct them on the issue(s). But often times they're not and will either ignore any advice or actively deride you for giving it. In this case, the mask comes off and they've shown they don't care about you or your time, you're just a vehicle for them to leech off of till the dungeon is over. And we should not be promoting that kind of behavior in the game. It's no less toxic than the toxicity of elitists, but still there are people that will give it a pass for some reason.

What exactly do you mean by "give it a pass?" If a group or player is absolutely horrendous then no one has actually disagreed with the idea of vote kicking or leaving the group.

So, beyond that, what exactly do you plan to do about it if someone ignores your polite advice and continues to play sub-par? If you start lashing out at the person you're not helping anyone; you're just selfishly venting your own frustration and causing even more problems for the group. The answer to a player who's not willing to pull the amount of weight you deem appropriate is either vote kicking or leaving. If you don't want to do either of those then you be quiet and see the run through; and after the run you can go whine about how unfair it is on your own time.

[LaughingBanana]

Hall of the Novice says healers should DPS during healing downtime.

Hall of the Novice also says that Tanks should pull enemies one by one in smaller chunks of groups instead of aggroing them all lest you get overwhelmed.

If a Tank does this sort of thing in dungeons instead of doing wall to wall pulls, you can bet your arse a lot of people would scream: "HEY, YOU'RE NOT PLAYING OPTIMAL!" at him/her :P

[RyuSaarva]

I guess you can't read then because the fourth word in my comment was 'multiple'. The specific instance remarked on was simply an example of the absolute worst one of the night. But please, continue showing that you can't even read properly.

I just don't believe you.

[Lucy_Pyre]

I just don't believe you.

Probably because you're the type of player who plays like those I was grouped with.

[SturmChurro]

Probably because you're the type of player who plays like those I was grouped with.

[LaughingBanana]

LOL this thread is just people sniping at each other.

What is funny is this: I think you folks are not really disagreeing with one another, though. The basic idea, I think, is something that everyone in here agrees: that if anyone or two in your party are playing badly--not just sub-optimally but badly--then it is okay to give him/her/them advice on how to perform better, right?

Okay, just right in here, everyone agrees, correct?

What everyone here disagrees in here is how to respond further if he/she/them continues to deliberately playing badly, ignore the advice, or respond rudely. I don't think there's a right answer to this: you can continue to push and by that you do show that that kind of attitude is not a good thing to have in the community. It's a good thing, even if you burst a vein or two in so doing. But people saying that all you can do is just remind people and those who ignore advices are not prone to be receptive if you continue to keep pushing is also true, I think--it's a waste of time getting angry or become frustrated because of it.

My take is: give advice whenever you see someone needing it--if they heed it, cool, if they don't, then just c'est la vie, because at that point, what can you do realistically, really?

[HeulGDarian]

LOL this thread is just people sniping at each other.

What is funny is this: I think you folks are not really disagreeing with one another, though. The basic idea, I think, is something that everyone in here agrees: that if anyone or two in your party are playing badly--not just sub-optimally but badly--then it is okay to give him/her/them advice on how to perform better, right?

Okay, just right in here, everyone agrees, correct?

What everyone here disagrees in here is how to respond further if he/she/them continues to deliberately playing badly, ignore the advice, or respond rudely. I don't think there's a right answer to this: you can continue to push and by that you do show that that kind of attitude is not a good thing to have in the community. It's a good thing, even if you burst a vein or two in so doing. But people saying that all you can do is just remind people and those who ignore advices are not prone to be receptive if you continue to keep pushing is also true, I think--it's a waste of time getting angry or become frustrated because of it.

My take is: give advice whenever you see someone needing it--if they heed it, cool, if they don't, then just c'est la vie, because at that point, what can you do realistically, really?

What i realistically do at that point is feel dead inside , feeling the seconds like they are ages , contemplating my life choices , and since its usually amaurot wondering why the f did SE made a boss that is literally trashpulls and also thinking You just literally tanked the equivalent of 2 pulls why the f are we still pulling 1 group at a time after it.