The tawdry female bosses are tiresome, and we could do with more male fanservice.

[Skivvy]

You're right, a misogynist would never use a blindingly obvious dogwhistle like "tawdry female" to start a conversation. Silly me.



1. I never said any outfit in this game was "normal looking" (which seems a strange thing to argue in a fantasy world where you can go around looking like a frog if you want). So I don't know who you're responding to. It sounds like you imagined something I said that was easier to refute. I think there's a word for that, straw-something or other.

2. You might as well have just linked me to Dave Chapelle's "well you ARE wearing a *****'s uniform" bit. I wasn't convinced then, and I'm not convinced now.

3. If a woman's body is not obscene, why does it matter if an outfit a woman is wearing is obscene? The answer is it doesn't, unless the speaker actually means something else. They invariably do, and the word itself betrays why. "Obscene" is a word that relies on moral decency, or else it wouldn't work. You would just call it skimpy. But you don't. Instead, you use a word that appeals to some nebulous set of (historically, male-imposed) values that women should adhere to, a word that has been used to police and shame women for their bodies, behavior, and attire for far longer than you or I have been alive. I'm not surprised people still accept it, believe it, and use it - but again, it's very sad to see it lasts even in a space I like to escape to.

1) This was more for the overall thread. Go back and read some of the earlier comments and people are getting fussy over the use of the word "obscene". As far as what I'm considering "normal", things like what you see on Y'shota, Tataru, Ryne (not the primal), NPCs in town, etc.
2) I don't even know what you're getting at here.
3) An outfit can very well be obscene, hoochie, skimpy, etc without implying anything about the person themselves. Not every insult needs to be taken on a personal level.

Now I don't want to be jumping to any conclusions, but if you're seemingly so offended by someone using the phrase "tawdry females", are you also equally as offended by SE intentionally sexing up many of the bosses we encounter in game? Why do they so often have to be wearing skimpy little outfits? Who is that for? Why aren't the males handled in the same way?

[Lasana]

1) This was more for the overall thread. Go back and read some of the earlier comments and people are getting fussy over the use of the word "obscene". As far as what I'm considering "normal", things like what you see on Y'shota, Tataru, Ryne (not the primal), NPCs in town, etc.
2) I don't even know what you're getting at here.
3) An outfit can very well be obscene, hoochie, skimpy, etc without implying anything about the person themselves. Not every insult needs to be taken on a personal level.

1. I'm glad you clarified this is not actually addressed to me. Although I'm a little confused by your example of Y'shtola because her Heavensward and Shadowbringers attire has some obsc...sorry, sexy elements to their design.

2. Maybe before your time. It's a redundant point anyway.

3. Here we go again. "Hoochie" and "skimpy" do not share the same meaning as "obscene." Obscenity requires morality. When you say something is obscene, you are saying it is unaligned with morality and decency. I suspect you view the word as more innocuous in meaning. In my opinion, that's ignorant and shows no understanding of the word or its history. But I'll accept that you aren't arguing otherwise out of malice.

(1/3)

[Lasana]

if you're seemingly so offended by someone using the phrase "tawdry females", are you also equally as offended by SE intentionally sexing up many of the bosses we encounter in game? Why do they so often have to be wearing skimpy little outfits? Who is that for? Why aren't the males handled in the same way?

Well, "SE intentionally sexes up many of the bosses we encounter in the game" strikes me as a heavily opinionated statement, and I am not sure why you tie my objection to a real person's actual language to it, but I'll play along:

No. In some cases, it's because the design is an homage. Cloud of Darkness, Sophia, and Shiva's appearances are all based on their appearances in other Final Fantasies. Cloud of Darkness looks like she does in XIV because she's based on her appearances in III and Dissidia. Sophia is based on Goddess in FFVI. Shiva is the only one that's been reimagined because she looks different every time, but she's still clearly designed to draw on her past appearances (some of which have skimpier or even no clothing). You could argue that XIV could make them look more "modest" - whatever that means - but they were clearly designed with homage in mind, just as Exdeath and Kefka were. I don't think it's fair to fault XIV for this.

Taking your example of Primal Ryne, she, again, is based on Shiva. Shiva's appearance informs hers. That's not surface level cheesecake, it's a sign they actually sat down and thought about what the WoL's memories would make a Shiva'd!Ryne look like.

So we're back to enemies like Voidsent succubi, Forgiven Venery and her clones, maybe the Ruby Princess and the second boss in the Arboretum Hard mode, and the new one in 5.3. I'm not 100% clear on how often models are reused, but I notice that the Voidsent and the Sin Eater ladies look very similar. I believe there's some thematic intent to that, but I also think it's just easier from a development standpoint to repurpose and embroider on a model you already have. So again, I don't think it's just surface-level cheesecake. The Ruby Princess shows some belly* because she's wearing an outfit that I notice looks a lot like the gear her dungeon drops and which the beefy Male Highlander tank in my group appears to have been grinding all day, because I can see every inch of him from Ul'dah to Kugane. In other words, she's wearing attire that is equal opportunity fashion in-game. I don't see why I should be offended by that.

(* Fun fact: Barbara Eden of I Dream of Jeannie was famously not allowed to show her navel on television because it was considered, surprise surprise...obscene.)

(2/3)

[Lasana]

Scathach, Calofisteri and that other one from the Void Ark raids are definitely designed with "creepy sexy" in mind. I guess they could have uglified them for variety, so this might be a point for you? Then again, you're talking to someone that thought Forgall was creepy sexy, too, even if he didn't show a lot of skin.

I don't remember the Arboretum boss well enough besides a thought that she also looked a lot like the Voidsent succubus, and I hated her mechanics. I don't know if there's any lore on her. When I look up her name, I get an article about some Akkadian snake goddess. It could be objectifying, I guess? But then, ancient goddesses tended not to wear a lot. So I have to just take this example with a ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. It could be an example in your favor, but I honestly just don't remember her that well. She was a "pick up your winnings and leave" boss.

And now 5.3, the character we don't know anything about other than 1) she's a boss and 2) she has a sexy design. I don't feel that's enough to go on. If it turns out she's just like the second boss of the Arboretum, I'll be disappointed and more than a little offended that she's just there for the sexy and nothing else. But I won't know until 5.3. Neither will you, and neither will OP.

So to sum up, no, I am not offended, I do not consider their appearances obscene, and this - once again - has nothing to do with OP choosing to start this conversation with "tawdry females" which is textbook slut-shaming language.

As to "who it's for" - why does it have to be "for" anyone? Is Faye Valentine or Tifa Lockhart's wardrobe "for" people, or is it just how those characters choose to dress? (Similarly, if I dress up in a crop top and cutoffs because it's a hot day and I feel like it, would you say that's "for" someone? Maybe it's just for me. If that thought bothers anyone or they would consider it obscene, well, tough cookies. Like Quina Quen once said: I do what I want. You have problem?)

Third, here's a thinker: does it matter if there are fewer scantily clad males if you're just going to call their attire obscene, too? By the way, is it enough to have the male bosses be shirtless or showing off those quads? Do they also have to meet the classical definition of an attractive male? Hashmal (to pick another homage boss) and Ivan Coeurlfist are shirtless, but do they meet your definition of fanservice? Just food for thought.

(3/3)

[RightfulKing]

I don't agree with OP's wording, but I can see why they might be exasperated. I love the new female boss design, however I see where they and other people could be coming from.

It would be nice of SE could reevaluate the way they design some of their female bosses in the future. I love fanservice as much as the next person, but it gets a bit tiresome when so many female characters/bosses are skimpily designed when male characters/bosses don't really get the same, sexualized treatment. I don't think any of the existing bosses need redesigning.

I just would like some (not all!) female characters to be less sexualized and more practically clothed and some male characters who receive the same treatment as the adforementioned sexualized female characters. I think that's a fair thing to say.

[VictorTheed]

I just hope they don't sex up a lalafell female cause that would look way creepy, we're heading in that direction with what they did to ryne in the Shiva savage fight but I hope the breaks are put on and they turn around.

[Amnmaat]

I just hope they don't sex up a lalafell female cause that would look way creepy, we're heading in that direction with what they did to ryne in the Shiva savage fight but I hope the breaks are put on and they turn around.

When she took the form of Shiva she was a child no more. Even a lalafel could turn into Byakko, that's just how primals work. She looked nothing like a child whens he became a primal (Shiva).

Ok I got inspired.
Not my usual body type to draw, or really my preference for fanservice, but practice is good right?



He's a traditional Hellsguard thaumaturge drawing spiritual power from fire and heat.

I approve of a manly boss like that one. Good lore around the Firewalker title, Hellsguard Roe, very good design. Next time they want to add a female boss, they should think about a strong male boss like that one. You've all swayed me to your side of things, though I still wanna see the beautiful female bosses from time to time.

[Skivvy]

snip(3/3)

Sorry to snip, but that was a lot to try and copy. Not trying to discredit the post by doing that..just saving space.

As far as the term 'obscene' - you are correct in that I just about never use it in the sense of something being 'morally offensive', but more in the sense of just being indecent, which is also within the definition of the word. It can also be used as 'intended to stimulate sexual appetite or lust; lewd'.

In regards to XIV's boss design paying homage to older games, that is all fine and dandy, but that doesn't mean the older games or XIV shouldn't get any criticism over their design choices. If Calofisteri was a real person and wanted to roam around in her gold bikini, hey, have at it! But she's not an actual person, and was simply the creation of a game developer. She's just one of many in this game who have barely-there outfits.

MMOs as a whole have a reputation for making female armor far more revealing than their male counterparts. I think XIV tends to handle this better than many, but then NPCs like Echidna come to say hello. Sex sells, attractive characters sell, it's just what it is. I don't think the gaming industry is trying to empower women when they put a nearly-naked boss in the game. And so this is why I'm asking "who is it for"? They just know what their players like and what works.

To come back around to the "tawdry females" bit - if you can at least consider my comment above, don't have to agree with it but at least see where I'm coming from, 'tawdry females' is somewhat accurate in this sense. Tossing in a bunch of mostly-naked chicks is just a cheap and easy thing to do. I mean, I like some of their designs, but it's still a very basic MMO move. I can't speak for OP as far as how exactly he intended that description, but that's my take on it.

As far as your last point, I personally don't need my guys to be all hooched up, but I'm sure plenty of others wouldn't mind. I might take Aymeric in a swimsuit or something. :P If the time comes that I see some male bosses sporting g-strings and bending over to attack, or showing off massive bulges in a prominent way, kudos to SE!. And yes, I'd definitely lump that into the "obscene" category. But again, we have slightly ideas as to how the word is used.

[Nestama]

I just want to see more monstrous female bosses... like Twintania, Tioman, Dotoli Ciloc (Ixali Beastman) and Rukshs Dheem (Queen). It's silly that male bosses can be anything they want to be (but not skimpily dressed), but female bosses are mostly humanoid.

[Soge01]

We have plenty if variety when it comes the female form with bosses. Just because a few are sexy doesn't mean they are bad.

But I will agree with more male bosses like Vauthry, I guess if you find them lacking. :/