A Simple and Easy Solution to the Bard Identity Debate

[DPZ2]

Also I have no idea what a random lore excerpt has to do with the proposition of a simple game mechanic.

Obviously.

That 'random lore' is the entire key to the Bard job. It has driven the remaining lore of the Bard for the last 6 years.

And you want to change it into (to grossly paraphrase) "Let me make my bard into a magical minstrel instead. LOL"

Here's a video of your magical minstrel, who is definitely anything but a Bard.

[MirronTulaxia]

I'm not sure a simple aesthetic change would really suffice. It would help, but the job mechanically isn't very Bard like either. They tried to combine two distinct jobs into one and failed at delivering either I would argue.

[MPNZ]

I'm not sure a simple aesthetic change would really suffice. It would help, but the job mechanically isn't very Bard like either. They tried to combine two distinct jobs into one and failed at delivering either I would argue.

No. It succeeded, actually. They just royally screwed up in HW, succeeded greatly in StB, and then drilled holes in the bottom of the boat in ShB because they're still figuring out what players liked about it(Symphogear+AKB48 anime+Macross 7 and up with constant mobility, and not a BLM clone), what the job's needs are, and just what they disliked about the new actions and additions while also like not buffing status effects and asking their players to accept the largely useless class actions as replacements for lost abilities is a lot closer to what happened, IMO

[MirronTulaxia]

I wouldn't say they did myself. If they did we wouldn't have people still requesting Bard and Ranger, and have been since 2.0 launched. It's not like we have a noteworthy group of people requesting Magus or some such after all.

[MPNZ]

I wouldn't say they did myself. If they did we wouldn't have people still requesting Bard and Ranger, and have been since 2.0 launched. It's not like we have a noteworthy group of people requesting Magus or some such after all.

Um, I'm not sure there were any complaints or many calls for a separation of the job until 5.0. Before that people praised it throughout StB and wanted it to go further/higher, but were met with homogenized mechanics like in HW and with similar results. In 2.0 players complained at BRDs for being too powerful, in 3.0 BRD's complained about WM and were met with some ridicule due to meta job standings, zero complaints in StB as said, and ShB's literally made us go into a selfish phase with players who wanted rangers since 1.0 trolling the board as people also lost faith in the devs ability to design jobs... At least on the official forums

tldr: BRD is a support/DPS hybrid, not BLM or Ranger, I'm a lurker here for most of the week and don't recall any separation debates until recently, and the changes rocked the boat which they said that they wouldn't do

[MirronTulaxia]

I think you're talking about something rather different. Talking about how balanced it is as a job isn't really related to the job identity. The topic, at least to me, read as a discussion about the latter (aesthetic changes really only could be seen as a job identity thing to me), not the former.

[WigglesTheWiggly]

You weren't listening to Jehantel closely during the initial Bard quest were you?

"When folks think of a bard, they conjure images of a minstrel wandering the realm, performing at banquets and in alehouses for the pleasure of king and commoner alike. But the bard I would speak of is one born from a battle-hardened archer—one who sings his/her songs in the heat of combat to inspire his/her comrades to ever greater feats of martial prowess. As battles unfold, the distinctions between the lines of friend and foe grows hazy. Yet the archer must stay ever alert, with arrow nocked and eyes trained upon the struggle. One need not have a vivid imagination to appreciate the torrent of emotions that rages within him/her in that moment. Nerves near to fraying, his/her breast fit to burst, the archer does the only thing he/she can: he/she sings. And in that raw melody resides the power to stir the souls of men. That, my friend, is the true definition of a bard, and one that few now remember."

Yes, coming from the guy who's bow is literally a transforming Lyre.

[Cetonis]

I think you're talking about something rather different. Talking about how balanced it is as a job isn't really related to the job identity. The topic, at least to me, read as a discussion about the latter (aesthetic changes really only could be seen as a job identity thing to me), not the former.

No, it's a refutation of this:

If they did we wouldn't have people still requesting Bard and Ranger, and have been since 2.0 launched.

That's simply not true. Sure there was probably someone out there complaining at any given time, but it was never a regular source of complaint until Shadowbringers. The people complaining now were content, even if not thrilled, with the state of things in Stormblood, and even prior with long Foe and damage-draining MP/TP songs.

In Stormblood, over the course of an 8 minute encounter, an optimizing Bard would most likely use around ~22-24 skills that were primarily/entirely selfless in nature. In Shadowbringers, that's down to maybe ~8-10 or so (which is also about where Dancer is). Your average Monk or Summoner is going to be at maybe ~5-7 or something, so playing a "support dps" right now is only very slightly different than playing any other dps.

That's what (most) people are mad about. Not pixel aesthetics. There were no riots about the animation for Palisade. People enjoy helping their party. Generally those skills will have a song aesthetic for Bard, but that's not important thing in and of itself. The fringe voices that unironically want Bards to fight solely with harps are jumping in, but they've never been a significant number.

[ty_taurus]

No, it's a refutation of this:



That's simply not true. Sure there was probably someone out there complaining at any given time, but it was never a regular source of complaint until Shadowbringers. The people complaining now were content, even if not thrilled, with the state of things in Stormblood, and even prior with long Foe and damage-draining MP/TP songs.

In Stormblood, over the course of an 8 minute encounter, an optimizing Bard would most likely use around ~22-24 skills that were primarily/entirely selfless in nature. In Shadowbringers, that's down to maybe ~8-10 or so (which is also about where Dancer is). Your average Monk or Summoner is going to be at maybe ~5-7 or something, so playing a "support dps" right now is only very slightly different than playing any other dps.

That's what (most) people are mad about. Not pixel aesthetics. There were no riots about the animation for Palisade. People enjoy helping their party. Generally those skills will have a song aesthetic for Bard, but that's not important thing in and of itself. The fringe voices that unironically want Bards to fight solely with harps are jumping in, but they've never been a significant number.

You make it seem like the people who are frustrated with Bard's identity are a tiny niche, but that was the number 1 complaint about Bard back during the 2.X days. Then 3.X happened and suddenly we were bow casters and that's all we could talk about. Stormblood happened and we finally went from about 95% Archer and 5% Bard to 80% Archer and 20% Bard. It was a huge improvement to be sure, but still was only the first step in the eyes of many. A lot of us were hoping Bard would only continue to get more and more musical as expansions went on.

Now, I recognize that doing this means taking away the Archer that players who picked it up for the bow and not the name "Bard" want. I don't want to take that away. I just want a Bard that can be either an Archer or a Musician so that everyone can have the job fantasy they want with this job.

[Akiudo]

You make it seem like the people who are frustrated with Bard's identity are a tiny niche, but that was the number 1 complaint about Bard back during the 2.X days. Then 3.X happened and suddenly we were bow casters and that's all we could talk about. Stormblood happened and we finally went from about 95% Archer and 5% Bard to 80% Archer and 20% Bard. It was a huge improvement to be sure, but still was only the first step in the eyes of many. A lot of us were hoping Bard would only continue to get more and more musical as expansions went on.

Now, I recognize that doing this means taking away the Archer that players who picked it up for the bow and not the name "Bard" want. I don't want to take that away. I just want a Bard that can be either an Archer or a Musician so that everyone can have the job fantasy they want with this job.

okay well, i would like the archer that when archery just doesn't work anymore starts to support his friends by singing/playing a song, so stormblood bard actually was great for me, it was an archer that subclassed into cheerleader, and making a clear split as you describe would just leave me with 2 "classes", neither of which is what i originally signed up for.

on class text i believe the english version is to flowery, the german (which should be a direct translation of the japanese) version explains clearly without room for interpretation that the reason bards went on to sing and play music was that they where unable to shoot arrows on the battlefield once melee clashes started, which actually makes real life sense, as archery in war settings mostly meant batallions of archers shooting into the sky to make arrows rain down on the enemy, can't do this once friend and foe are smashing each others head in in melee range, so at this point they could only stand on the sidelines and watch which is why they turned to songs, to at least morally support and invigorate their friends