6.0 Both Tank and Healers Need Major Focus on Bringing Back Job Identity

[millktea]

I loved it as WAR it gave an unfair advantage to stay in the tank stance with no penalty and dealing more damage. This was one of the reasons why WAR was op, in addition to damage down and slashing debuff in 3.0. If one tank gets a skill like this all tanks need to get one like it too.

You did get a damage penalty. this argument only works with 50 content (no deliverance): war lost 5%, beast gauge crit buff% (in HW, max stacks was 10%), and no access to fell cleave for 10s (5 gcds).

And that last sentence is a major reason of why Warrior is dead. No, you don't give all the tanks the same thing, that's the problem we are in right now. Resistances needed to go though. War was not required as other jobs brought slashing (a paladin/dark knight comp was trash for multiple reasons), but dragoon's piercing resistance though, THAT was messed up. Only drg could bring that, slashing wasnt exclusive.

At the time I had to take my hiatus the consensus seemed to be that if you weren't WAR you were crippling your party DPS.

Were you a pld at the time? PF didn't really lock one slot WAR only, but often they'd lock one for pld only (man, my alt was a samurai that got blocked).

I mean, I do lock out jobs in my PFs, I'm competitive, but I mean.... I also just don't like mch :V (they bully too hard). I don't enforce meta, tho and its still circumstantial.

[millktea]

...
Out of all the ... WHAT???!!!???

Paladin has the worst mitigation in the game. Its missing a cd. Gnb gets a consistent shield with its rotation.
GNB being the least played doesn't define its difficulty.

There is more thought into playing warrior, barret. As its complexity revolves around IR timings and gauge management, which you used to say how gnb is more challenging. You're cds are 30s/60s, this makes the job very simple. The cd is so low that you can get away with delaying NM. Let me tell you how to gnb: you essentially hit stuff on cd.

Watch your charges so you don't use Bloodfest on cooldown overcapping. same for infuriate and inner chaos. There are times a war needs to know to use Inf for beast gauge and not just IC. This is also similar of knowing each Beast skill shaves 5s off Inf cd, so war needs to watch out and be proactive so you don't lose those seconds/ charges

Only weave one of the OGCDs during continuation combo if available (not counting the continuation OGCD proc) timing weaving on Warrior so you don't clip a
gcd during IR, which holds essentially most of your damage. This includes IC. Wars animation's are long and cause clipping which can cause a lost DHC fc. Even upheaval or onslaught can clip in IR. Most of WARs dps is in IR, but this isn't necessarily true for GNB.

Know your timing of the fight so you know to prioritize continuing your base combo after continuation so you don't drop that combo. sounds like Inner Release, storms eye, and most jobs in this game. Not exclusive to GNB.

Sometimes you have to start continuation early like in Shiva icelit 1 so you don't drop your standard combo progression during the knockback. you also need to make sure that you use IR and your charges so don't lose them and reapply eye so its still up. There are times you need to make sure you cut your gauge, popped IC, and reapply eye just before boss jumps so you're reapplying is still buffed


Nothing you said was anything different than WAR. All you did was "omit complexity" on war to make it seem less difficult than it actually is and tried to say more stuff about GNB to make it seem harder. Warriors complexity is Inner Release timings and gauge management. There is optimization in storms eye and gauge, just like the things you mentioned with GNB, but you did not bother to bring it up (oh, but in my thread, you did. Hmm...). There are times that putting up eye isn't worth it if you get an extra IR out of it

GNB takes 2-3 gcds for 1 cartridge. War needs 6 for 1 beast skill (sometimes 4 in aoe) and needs to maintain Storms Eye (and to gapclose or upheaval, you need gauge). As long as WARs damage is tied to BG, WAR is harder than GNB.

You only showed your bias and lack of perspective. There's more to WAR than just keeping up SE and not hitting IC during IR (which, btw, there are circumstances you DO hit it during IR).

I understand you dislike war losing a lot of buttons and it got "simplified", but that doesn't make it easier than gunbreaker.

[Seraphor]

Some ideas for level 90 skills that would help give tanks a bit more identity. Although these assume that the rest of the kit stays mostly the same, which isn't too likely, but I can't hope to predict what they might change to the rest of the kit so lets just assume that they remain the same as they are now.
These are all basically skills that capitalise on their burst phases, increasing both DPS and mitigation in some way.

GNB skill: Lionheart
After completing one full Continuation combo, Continuation becomes 'Lionheart' 200 potency oGCD which can be hit as many times as you can for 6s, with each hit increasing the damage of the next one by 10%.
Additional Effect: Each use of Lionheart reduces the cooldowns of Heart of Light and Heart of Stone by 5s.
(Basically extends your Continuation burst and makes the 2nd phase more hectic with double weaving instead of single weaving)

DRK skill: Blood Curse
If 5 Bloodspiller or Quietus' were used during Delirium, Delirium upgrades to Blood Curse.
Blood Curse: Duration 6s. Bloodspiller and Quietus only consume 20 Blackblood. All Weaponskills deal 5% more damage, drain 5% of your Current HP and restore 1000 MP.
Additional Effect: The cooldown of 'The Blackest Night' resets when Blood Curse expires.
(requires more resource management (reserving Blackblood for Blood Curse) and HP awareness (HP drain), but rewards you with an additional TBN and the MP to use it)

WAR skill: Exculpated Rage (recast 180s)
(extra skill, not actually an upgraded skill, because WAR doesn't need it)
Increases damage resistance by a further 20%. Reduces the recast on all Weaponskills by 1s. Only Weaponskills can be used. Duration 6s.
(A true 'berserk' skill that's active every other Inner Release, allowing for maybe 2 or 3 additional Fell Cleaves within that window. Requires good timing, use of any necessary abilities before hand, and differentiates it further from DRK.)

PLD spell: Holy Orison (2000 MP)
Clemency upgrades to Holy Orison under the effect of Requiescat. Returns to Clemency after one use.
Grants self and all party members in range a 100 potency Regen for 9s. This is increased to 200 potency to any party members under the effect of Divine Veil.
Increases the potency of your next three spells by 50%.
(basically replaces a Holy Spirit (350+175 potency) for another +175 on two Holy Spirits and +400 potency on Confiteor. only slight DPS increase (+225 in total) but breaks up the Holy spam a bit and doubles down on party mitigation.)

[Lucy_Pyre]

WAR skill: Exculpated Rage (recast 180s)
(extra skill, not actually an upgraded skill, because WAR doesn't need it)
Increases damage resistance by a further 20%. Reduces the recast on all Weaponskills by 1s. Only Weaponskills can be used. Duration 6s.
(A true 'berserk' skill that's active every other Inner Release, allowing for maybe 2 or 3 additional Fell Cleaves within that window. Requires good timing, use of any necessary abilities before hand, and differentiates it further from DRK.)

Without proper testing to see how much of a DPS increase this would cause, I admit I like the idea on paper. Although I don't think it needs damage mitigation tied to it. Other than that, though, it does seem like a good ability. Giving an extra couple of Fell Cleave's under Inner Release is pretty huge so I can see a 3 minute cooldown being entirely justifiable.

Edit: On thinking over it for a moment longer, cutting the GCD by 1 second would only allow for 1 extra FC under IR due to it restricting you from using non-weaponskills, as the combo would go: IR -> FC + Upheaval + Onslaught -> Fell Cleave + Excul -> FC -> FC -> FC -> FC. Because it locks you out of abilities it means that you must use your first GCD of IR on both Upheaval and Onslaught. Then combine that with the fact that you cannot use this new skill until the end of your next GCD's weave slot and, by the time you activate it, you only have 5 seconds left on Inner Release. This 1 second of lost time cuts you down from gaining a potential 2 additional Fell Cleave's to only 1. In order to get 2 you would need to be able to cast abilities under this buff's effect, so that you could do this combo instead: IR -> FC + Excul -> FC + Upheaval -> FC + Onslaught -> FC -> FC -> FC -> FC.

Edit 2: The other alternative would be to simply not use Onslaught during Inner Release, which would allow you to use this new ability in the 2nd weave slot of your first IR FC and delay Upheaval until your last or next to last GCD of Inner Release. However, this also presents a problem, as most WARs tend to run 2.38 GCD, and Upheaval has some very slight drifting at that GCD which will typically cause it to, over multiple minutes of sustained combat, drift from the 1st GCD weave under IR to the 2nd, 3rd, etc. Meaning that if you wait to use your initial Upheaval on your opener IR until near the end of the buff it is massively accelerating this drifting problem.

TL;DR - Allow for the skill to let the user cast abilities along with weaponskills and the only potential issue with its functionality fades.

[Seraphor]

Perhaps if it only excluded specifically non-damaging abilities.
Thus allowing the use of Onslaught.

[TofuPenguin]

Job identity is something I really miss. After coming back (last time played was 2.x), I didn't recognize pld anymore. Still, I leveled an alt pld to relearn the class. Then picked up drk at 50.

Things just feel generic now and I'm not even 80 yet. And I miss the days of actually having to work to keep aggro.

[HeulGDarian]

Ignoring all the fanfic comments, i really think they should just revert the changes to aggro that had half the extra unique abilities deleted, if they want to have accessibility in the game they can have one job that is safe and easy which imo it should be pld , could even have only one stance like now without penalty. I believe that all roles should have 1 easy and accessible job but currently the only one that provides it is the caster role. SMN BLM and RDM is the only balanced roster and one that was the least screwed over by the changes (even though smn became a clunky mess cause of those changes thanks SE....."sigh"). Till they fix all the other roles though ill keep using ACCESSIBILITY as a euphemism for shit.

[Satarn]

I believe that all roles should have 1 easy and accessible job but currently the only one that provides it is the caster role. SMN BLM and RDM is the only balanced roster and one that was the least screwed over by the changes

This is honestly the core problem with job design right now imo. SE's opposition to provide a diverse range of complexity between the jobs within each role, is why they fail to appeal to a lot of people. There is nothing wrong with having some jobs be catered to more casual players and offer more relaxed gameplay, but some of us just need more to feel engaged.

I've said it time and time again - if you try to make every job "playable" for as wide an audience as possible, you will end up with a set of jobs that a lot of people can "sorta enjoy", but ones that don't really appeal to anyone fully and for some players there will be nothing at all. Instead focus on catering each job to a specific niche and that way you'll get individual jobs which their players love, even if it's just a couple jobs per player. This is how you really make the game appealing to the wider audience. I'd rather hate some jobs and love a few, than be lukewarm about all 17+ of them.

This is also why them "fixing" jobs based on just the content participation is flawed(on top of it not really accounting for things like a fun job just being underpowered, or a boring job being overpowered) - a job having a small playerbase isn't necessarily bad if said playerbase is actually satisfied with the job's gameplay.

[Lucy_Pyre]

All I really want to see SE to for 6.0 in terms of major tank changes is for Fell Cleave to go from 590p to 600p, and Inner Chaos to go from 920p to 950p. Seriously, how awkward of potency values are 590 and 920? I know it's a really weird thing to gripe about but those potency values have always irked me. Besides that, with how high a percentage of WAR's overall damage comes from Fell Cleave and Inner Chaos these small potency buffs would also translate to putting WAR close to (or at) 2nd place for tank DPS behind GNB; which frankly, I think is where it should be. Can't say it really makes much of any sense that the tank who's supposed to fill the berserker archetype of 'take a huge hit only to rip its enemy in two and regenerate their own wounds' does less damage than the 'holy protector' of the PLD whose whole archetype gimmick is being someone that guards and protects others with his life.

[Absurdity]

I actually want them to rework warrior to get away from the whole direct crit debacle, all it does is cause warrior to not benefit from a lot of party buffs (Battle Litany does absolutely nothing for us since it overlaps with IR, as does Battle Voice) and it makes our BiS rather awkward since warrior is the only tank that doesn't want any direct hit melds.



At this point I would honestly prefer it's original 4.0 design, except maybe keep the cost reduction of current IR and adjust potencies accordingly because setting up your burst before 4.2 was too much effort for too little gain. This would potentially even solve the issue of warrior hitting like a wet noodle outside of IR windows.