Yoshi-P Sanpo comments re: Bard

[EONX_]

One change I'd also like to see is having their song rotation last either 60s or 90s before restarting in WM. Currently it's a 80s rotation which aligns with very little in the game. Having them align more naturally at either 60s or 90s would definitely help the job a lot and make it more enjoyable to play since you have more windows to optimize.

[Eloah]

One change I'd also like to see is having their song rotation last either 60s or 90s before restarting in WM. Currently it's a 80s rotation which aligns with very little in the game. Having them align more naturally at either 60s or 90s would definitely help the job a lot and make it more enjoyable to play since you have more windows to optimize.

The issue with this is that the 80s rotation is mostly player made. Since based on the songs durations the rotation should be 90s. If they are able to adjust Armys Paean so that cutting it short isn't desired then that, in theory, would adjust the rotation up to 90s.

It would be nice if in 6.0 the songs got some kind of an upgrade.

[Akiudo]

The issue with this is that the 80s rotation is mostly player made. Since based on the songs durations the rotation should be 90s. If they are able to adjust Armys Paean so that cutting it short isn't desired then that, in theory, would adjust the rotation up to 90s.

adjusting armys paeon so cutting it short isn't desired would only mean you would cut mages ballad short instead. Only way to really make you "want" a 90 second rotation with the songs would be if the recast cooldown on them were 90s each, but that would

a)be a straight up nerf even with perfect gameplay
b)punish accidental cutting of other songs even harder than it allready does
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from the things proposed here i will just say that while i like basically all the points you mentioned, the biggest by far for me would be
1/2. (tie)buffing sidewinder (its simply too weak for the cooldown, especially with EA as comparison)
1/2. (tie)stacks for EA and BL, its simply overly punishing right now aswell as more or less forces you to just spam BL during mages ballad which well, "doesn't feel nice" to say it nicely
3. pitch perfect cooldown of 1 second, its bad enough getting the skill out when the server tick happens at 1~ second left, really no need to make it worse by also having to watch out that you use it early enough so the cooldown is even ready.

btw, one point you didn't specifically mention about a second EA charge is the more flexible timing this would offer would actually allow us to keep an extra charge for wanderers instead of using it during armys paeon when its not needed, which would be great because that would actually be a small way to optimize a bit more, instead of simply "more/bigger" number

[Eloah]

adjusting armys paeon so cutting it short isn't desired would only mean you would cut mages ballad short instead. Only way to really make you "want" a 90 second rotation with the songs would be if the recast cooldown on them were 90s each, but that would
a)be a straight up nerf even with perfect gameplay
b)punish accidental cutting of other songs even harder than it allready does

How does adjusting things so that cutting Armys Paean isn't desired, translate into a desire in cutting Mages Ballad. The main reason for the cutting isnt the songs CD, it's the affect. Armys Paean has the least desired affect so it gets clipped. SE would need to adjust things so that players want their song to play out for the full duration. The 80s CD is just a way to ensure that a song is always available when cycling through the songs.

[Akiudo]

How does adjusting things so that cutting Armys Paean isn't desired, translate into a desire in cutting Mages Ballad. The main reason for the cutting isnt the songs CD, it's the affect. Armys Paean has the least desired affect so it gets clipped. SE would need to adjust things so that players want their song to play out for the full duration. The 80s CD is just a way to ensure that a song is always available when cycling through the songs.

you gave the reason yourself, the problem isn't the cooldown, its the effect. one song will allways be the weakest, unless all 3 are identical thats inevitable so if you make the effect of armys better so it isn't the worst song anymore something else (mages ballad in that case) will be the worst song instead and you would cut that.

the only real way to get away from that is to literally force you to use all three songs for their full duration, in that case they could aswell turn their cooldown up to 90s and be done with it, that would be a nerf though, buffing armys paeon so its better than mages would indeed be a buff, it would however simply shift the problem to the next weakest song.

[Eloah]

you gave the reason yourself, the problem isn't the cooldown, its the effect. one song will allways be the weakest, unless all 3 are identical thats inevitable so if you make the effect of armys better so it isn't the worst song anymore something else (mages ballad in that case) will be the worst song instead and you would cut that.

the only real way to get away from that is to literally force you to use all three songs for their full duration, in that case they could aswell turn their cooldown up to 90s and be done with it, that would be a nerf though, buffing armys paeon so its better than mages would indeed be a buff, it would however simply shift the problem to the next weakest song.

That does make sense in theory, but it would also depend on what possible changes are done to Armys Paean. Ideally, SE would adjust things so that there are two song rotations, one for AoE and one for single target. That way the song that is "weakest" changes. It's a conundrum, as you have indicated, because you dont want to shift the weakest song. Maybe shifting the additional effects that the party receives is a possible solution. If Armys Paean has the strongest party effect, it would warrant the full 30 seconds.

[Vogue]

How does adjusting things so that cutting Armys Paean isn't desired, translate into a desire in cutting Mages Ballad. The main reason for the cutting isnt the songs CD, it's the affect. Armys Paean has the least desired affect so it gets clipped. SE would need to adjust things so that players want their song to play out for the full duration. The 80s CD is just a way to ensure that a song is always available when cycling through the songs.

I agree with this, having a tight cooldown rotation for the songs can be bad and stressful. The 80s gives a room to clip songs shorter (normally Army's Paean) if needed to avoid having to pay attention to the song timer while doing complex mechanics, or to lineup songs with party buffs burst times. If there was no extra time, then clipping any song would mean songless periods.

[Kabooa]

adjusting armys paeon so cutting it short isn't desired would only mean you would cut mages ballad short instead. Only way to really make you "want" a 90 second rotation with the songs would be if the recast cooldown on them were 90s each, but that would

a)be a straight up nerf even with perfect gameplay
b)punish accidental cutting of other songs even harder than it allready does


from the things proposed here i will just say that while i like basically all the points you mentioned, the biggest by far for me would be
1/2. (tie)buffing sidewinder (its simply too weak for the cooldown, especially with EA as comparison)
1/2. (tie)stacks for EA and BL, its simply overly punishing right now aswell as more or less forces you to just spam BL during mages ballad which well, "doesn't feel nice" to say it nicely
3. pitch perfect cooldown of 1 second, its bad enough getting the skill out when the server tick happens at 1~ second left, really no need to make it worse by also having to watch out that you use it early enough so the cooldown is even ready.

btw, one point you didn't specifically mention about a second EA charge is the more flexible timing this would offer would actually allow us to keep an extra charge for wanderers instead of using it during armys paeon when its not needed, which would be great because that would actually be a small way to optimize a bit more, instead of simply "more/bigger" number

I'll preface this with I've only leveled it and haven't had much interest in doing more with it.

It's really odd to me that the GCD upgrades are baseline instead of baked into Soldier's Paen. I'm generally not a fan of straight upgrades, but it seemed a missed opportunity to me.

I also mentioned this in another thread, but I'll throw the "Apex Arrow should be based on Songs" back in here. Rather than have Soldier's Paen being your song modulator, Apex Arrow does it instead. I'm sure some might disagree with me, but Apex Arrow doesn't feel good to me. It's a gauge i have very little control over, and the feast or famine associated with procs means I can't really use it when I want to either.

As far as this thread goes though, I'll give it a generic "thumbs up" because they know bard better and none of the changes seem unreasonable.

[Cetonis]

btw, one point you didn't specifically mention about a second EA charge is the more flexible timing this would offer would actually allow us to keep an extra charge for wanderers instead of using it during armys paeon when its not needed, which would be great because that would actually be a small way to optimize a bit more, instead of simply "more/bigger" number

Yes, that would be an upside as well, and really the main way in which that change would serve as a overall "buff", yet it also helps with both QoL and downtime weakness.

I was doing some scribbles this morning to visualize the MB GCD timeline a bit better, and it really is laughable how ugly the BL/EA interaction is there. A common-sense GCD->BL+EA->GCD->BL weave is almost certain to waste a proc opportunity when you consider the safe zone's prior GCD alignment, and even EA+BL is spooky without a good prior-tick timing read. BL+EA+BL is usually safe, but of course it's a triple, which is not only a -51p clip, but also bonus taxes you having to move up IJ a lot of the time. It's a lose-lose where you almost hope to fail the 64% proc chance, just so you can use EA without getting punished for it.

BL charges would do more to fix that situation directly, but EA charges additionally help with WM things, so it really would be nice to just get both. I think back to the ShB skill reveal video, which "showed off" BL charges if you watched carefully, and would love to know if that was ever on the table, and why they nixed it if so.


As for the 90s topic, as laid out before you really don't need to worry about forcing the songs to be a 90s cycle when the real burst is detached anyway.

And even then, the raid buffs on that timeline aren't all that exciting? As-is right now, we get Raging+Barrage onto every other 2m cooldown, as well as any 3m that might be held for a 4m usage due to fight length.

Shifting to a hard-locked 90s cycle would give that up in order to align with Monk, the only job that's less popular than Bard, plus hitting Trick Attack a little more often. We'd mainly get to line up with SMN and DRG more often than we do the 2m stuff, but not in a 4m-hold situation.

And that true-2m stuff we'd now be missing half or more of the time? Both healer raid buffs (therefore the most common ones to see), as well as RDM, the largest buff for our purposes since we mainly care about Barrage.

And again, it's not like we can't voluntarily move to a 90s cycle right now. We just don't, because it's a bad tradeoff. But it's not a bad tradeoff because of AP, per se. Back in SB, slotting in 30s APs for alignment's sake, so long as it didn't cost you any WM uptime, was a potent optimization. The relatively low cost of that tradeoff hasn't changed that much; the problem is that the benefits just aren't worth it. Aligning better with usually one or two 5% party buffs is just a big shrug when our burst is as tame as it is.

[KDSilver]

I'm no main bard, so I'll leave the number tweak and adjustment to people who know what they're talking about.

However, I used to play it a lot in HW and a bit in SB and what made me sad with SHB iteration it how it became a "worse Dancer" in the support department.

Bard lost MP/TP refresh, Foe, Palissade and Minne was nerfed (they even removed the songs buff, fortunately, people were vocals about that so it has been brought back)
It bothers me that Dancer introduction had to be done with Bard being less supportive.
The dispel while good is really situationnal/niche, Troubadour because the copy paste of samba and tactician.

I personnaly would love Bard to get back some support flavour abilities (that aren't necesseraly dps buff). But something that make bard being bard again and not just an archer that has to live in the "true support" shadow, aka dancer.