The housing system in this game NEEDS A COMPLETE GD OVERHALL. Complete stupidity....

[Theodric]

I don't want to see a tax system added to the game. Gil isn't too hard for me to make but it'd still leave a bitter taste in my mouth for such a system to be added this far into the game's development cycle.

[Eldevern]

There's no reason to add a gils sink since it is not the problem. The fact people are rich is not abusing a system where the design itself is the problem. People who think that way are... outdated considering the technology that allow both an full instancied system and evolutive housing as Wildstard did but even better (more neighborood as some kind of FC central house with individual satellites houses).

Even worst, any gils sink will just make a mess in MB. People who can take advantage of a gils sink are only the ones rich enough to manipulate the market and create some kind of monopole or you ask some kind of BDO market board (system priced) where only bots and unemployed people will spend enough time in game to make the gils.

[Jojoya]

There's no reason to add a gils sink since it is not the problem. The fact people are rich is not abusing a system where the design itself is the problem. People who think that way are... outdated considering the technology that allow both an full instancied system and evolutive housing as Wildstard did but even better (more neighborood as some kind of FC central house with individual satellites houses).

Even worst, any gils sink will just make a mess in MB. People who can take advantage of a gils sink are only the ones rich enough to manipulate the market and create some kind of monopole or you ask some kind of BDO market board (system priced) where only bots and unemployed people will spend enough time in game to make the gils.

Lack of decent gil sinks actually is part of the problem when it comes to house availability. Many players bought not because they're interested in having a house but because they had a lot of gil, were continuing to make even more gil, and had nothing else to do with it. The lack of any recurring fee means they have no incentive to give up what they already have but don't use to another player that would like to have it and would use it.

Gil sinks don't make a mess out of the marketboards. They help to stabilize them as each gil becomes more valuable and players have to make more meaningful decisions about what they purchase. Rich players who like to manipulate marketboards are already doing that to the best of their ability because that's the game play they enjoy. Adding in new gil sinks wouldn't change their behavior.

[Eldevern]

...

You focus on rich people forgetting all the others : more gils sink will just punish people who would be interested in housing but can't compet with bots and people who can spend a lot of time IG. You just see on half of the problem totally skiping the other side.

One time and again, you will make things even worse, rare items (as the ones you get with airship/submarine) will become even more expensive achieving the vicious circle.

You don't make people rich poor with tax, you just favor the most greddy ones and make things worst. There are always people who understand the system and can trick it. And the ones who can't compete are punished achieving the opposite result to the one you expect.

Since there's no bank, no financial system, the only way to make prices decrease and make rich less rich is to make things easier to obtain. Little is the reward, litlle is the incentive. People will be less greedy if the reward doesn't worth it. Kill the exclusivity will solve the problem, a gils sink is all the opposite since the availabilty of the ressource doesn't change.

[Eric_Riot]

What do you think the ratio is for Rich/Middle Class/Poor, in ffxiv of cores?

[Eldevern]

What do you think the ratio is for Rich/Middle Class/Poor, in ffxiv of cores?

No idea. SE data are not that informative. Based on rumors, we can imagine a lot of HL active characters worth around 3-6M, maybe 9M to 20M. A few high-end grinders -craft, gathering, Eureka- probably worth around 100M if not even more.

[EDIT]
Now, come to think about it, the drop of TP cost and the gils for Doma reconstruction, are all the opposite of a gils sink and it leads me to think a lot of HL players are not that wealthy.

[LaylaTsarra]

What do you think the ratio is for Rich/Middle Class/Poor, in ffxiv of cores?

Housing is cheap. Just about anyone can afford at least a small house let alone medium and large. I can remember when mansions sat open for months on my home server let alone other size homes. Most people couldn't really afford housing at that time.

[Melichoir]

Do you seriously think even 10m a month is going to affect someone who owns 8 FC houses?

Or that multi-house owners will not find ways to game the system, so they end up paying lower upkeep tax?

There are no loopholes. The rules permit ownership of 8 FC houses per server/per service account.

Perhaps when SE can properly resolve the FC Master inheritance issue, then this 'loophole' might be closed.

It would be more productive to request SE to introduce proper instanced housing along with workshop/garden access alongside existing housing. There will never be enough houses for every individual player under the current persistent ward system. Surveys conducted on NA data centers, have shown that personal house owners are occupying the majority of houses. ~70% Personal houses vs ~30% FC houses.

The solution was built into the plan and even I didnt account for it: The deposit as a cap. If you have to pay 1 mil in rent, but can only put 100k into the deposit, you will get penalized and be unable to pay the deposit. It doesnt matter what you do, you will not be able to fulfill the cost and be forced out of property. The way it would be handled is to force the player to abandon properties until they can pay for the rent.

Now some people may argue that this is a terrible and backwards system that punishes players for 'following the rules' but as I suggested, the loop hole wasnt in owning property. It was in in providing money to alts using intermediaries and other aspects that would make it unlikely a person would be able to purchase said property in any case without a ton of investment as it were.

You focus on rich people forgetting all the others : more gils sink will just punish people who would be interested in housing but can't compet with bots and people who can spend a lot of time IG. You just see on half of the problem totally skiping the other side.

One time and again, you will make things even worse, rare items (as the ones you get with airship/submarine) will become even more expensive achieving the vicious circle.

You don't make people rich poor with tax, you just favor the most greddy ones and make things worst. There are always people who understand the system and can trick it. And the ones who can't compete are punished achieving the opposite result to the one you expect.

Since there's no bank, no financial system, the only way to make prices decrease and make rich less rich is to make things easier to obtain. Little is the reward, litlle is the incentive. People will be less greedy if the reward doesn't worth it. Kill the exclusivity will solve the problem, a gils sink is all the opposite since the availabilty of the ressource doesn't change.

*Sigh*....As in real life, theres a reason why wealthy people dont like taxes. Unlike in real life, there is no migrating to another country to avoid taxes. So in a closed system like an MMO, universal taxes would actually work pretty effectively at controlling inflation and economies.

Furthermore, you need Gil sinks in games where money is 'printed'. Every time you turn in a quest, sell things to NPCs, etc etc, that money is printed and added to the economy, but far less of it actually leaves the economy. It is the exact reason why inflation occurs in MMOs. Some MMOs are better than others about this, but because NPCs dont have a finite amount of wealth themselves (i.e. you can literally keep seling scrap to an NPC and they will still have money to buy it from you), you are continously adding money into the economy. To make this point clear, Clear Demimateria III is worth 5k to an NPCs. Thats not a whole lot of gil, but hey, 5k in your pocket. If 1000 players sell just 1 each, the economy now has 5 Million extra gil than it did before sales. And 1000 players making this one sale is a pittance of the player population. Now take that idea and multiply it out a by the entire player population with every item that gets vendored to an NPC and you can very quickly start seeing how the game is adding in more gil daily. Individually it may not be much, but it adds up overtime.

You need money sinks to exist to pull money out of the economy to increase the individual value of Gil OR you need to make Gil from standard sources very finite (So NPCs only have so much Gil for the entire player base.) The latter isnt very feasible in an MMO. Furthermore, Gil sinks dont negatively hurt poor people as much as you feel, because unlike in real life where a poor person has overhead costs like food/shelter/etc, these considerations are not present in an MMO. You dont need to eat, you dont need to sleep, you dont need to have shelter in an MMO. You can spend your entire day performing services and generating profit, or banking your luck on things that are high demand and worth something to wealthier players. The sole limiting factor of generating wealth in FFXIV isnt taxes or gil sinks - its the output of the player. You dont want to be poor? Pick up the crafting professions. Monitor the MB and find out what is worth things. Grind content to get rare items. There is plenty in the game for you to do to actually make a decent buck. If anything, devaluing gil and eliminating gil sinks ends up hurting poorer players more because the little gil they have is worth even less due to inflation.

Furthermore, as long as player demand is the point of exclusivity, prices will always be 'high'. What changes is the relative nature of how high it is. Is 'x' mount harder to get than y mount? Then x is more exclusive, therefore will be worth more. Player demand dictates this. It is basic market forces working. If anything, proposing that you remove exclusivity and everything 'comes easy' would probably end up killing an MMO because then nothing you do has worth. Despite what a vocal minority says, exclusivity and challenge actually are benefits to MMOs and help with player retention. Of course you dont want to go so hard its damn near impossible to get anything. There is a balance, but go to easy, and the things you do does beocome meaningless and not worth troubling yourself with. As in, not even worth playing the game.

It's also worth noting that if you dont have time to play the game, dont expect to have the same benefits of people who do invest in it. Like most anything, the more you invest, the more youd be rewarded. If you struggle to even play a few hours per week, dont expect to be handed things like housing, glamours, gear, and etc. Thats just the gist of it.

Lastly, I become annoyed by the "Its all the bots fault" arguments. They do eliminate avenues of wealth generation due to unreasonable competition and in huge unchecked numbers can break a game's econ, but they are not the sole reason for inflation or player wealth disparity currently. A frank reality is most players dont actually pursue wealth generation in games. Most players dont observe the MB, or maximize their profits, or pursue paths of wealth generation. As an example, knowing when to sell items makes a huge difference in making money. Playing certain content and achieving rarer items helps immensely. Having crafters and what not so you dont buy crafted gear/equipment and can make your own saves you money. There is a lot of things you can do to improve your lot in FFXIV life, but a lot of players dont put the time and effort into doing this. That isnt anyones fault but their own. Bots dont stop you from farming content they cant operate in. Bots dont stop you from leveling crafters and gatherers. They dont stop you from playing the Market board or determining when to sell items. They do contribute to some issues, but by and large, they are not the sole source of issues economy wise in the game.

Taxes and driving down inflation would probably have some negative short term effects, but as the markets adjust and balance out, I predict you will see more long term benefits that would help benefit poorer players who actually engage in making money more so than wealthier players.

[LaylaTsarra]

Now some people may argue that this is a terrible and backwards system that punishes players for 'following the rules' but as I suggested, the loop hole wasnt in owning property. It was in in providing money to alts using intermediaries and other aspects that would make it unlikely a person would be able to purchase said property in any case without a ton of investment as it were.

Oddly enough my alts all have 15 to 20+ million. One even has 120 million. I earned 500k on an alt on Spriggan yesterday selling materia she got from capping with A train hunts that morning. They didn't get the money from their main they earned it all by themselves. They are actually on different servers many of them. I'm glad you feel you know the answer to how people could afford more than one house but you don't.

Your loophole so to speak doesn't really hold water. Anyone wanting to get a house with an alt can earn that money easily enough. And I might add that asset transfers aren't forbidden for many things. Perhaps if SE was proactive and let alts share a house it wouldn't be an issue.

Relative to rentals I wouldn't hold your breath with SE instituting that little gem into the works after all this time.

[Melichoir]

Oddly enough my alts all have 15 to 20+ million. One even has 120 million. I earned 500k on an alt on Spriggan yesterday selling materia she got from capping with A train hunts. They didn't get the money from their main they earned it all by themselves. They are actually on different servers many of them. I'm glad you feel you know the answer to how people could afford more than one house but you don't.

Your loophole so to speak doesn't really hold water. Anyone wanting to get a house with an alt can earn that money easily enough. And I might add that asset transfers aren't forbidden for many things. Perhaps if SE was proactive and let alts share a house it wouldn't be an issue.

Relative to rentals I wouldn't hold your breath with SE instituting that little gem into the works after all this time.

Using an anecdote to disqualify my point is what doesnt hold water. I didnt suggest that you couldnt earn money the old fashioned way per alt, but that it is more plausible that those who own multiple residences (8 FC houses and the like, particularly large scale residences like mansions) are not doing that by grinding individually per alt, but instead using money generated from one character and distributing it to alts via intermediaries - something that isnt intended with the current systems in place.