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  1. #391
    Player
    BarretOblivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    428
    Character
    Tamamo Cat
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithia View Post
    Any death is recoverable, the game is designed around that way once you have the gear to comfortably clear the content. Note this part that I said: if we are talking about max item level characters then it's more lenient depending on the content you are doing.
    This is definately not true. There are plenty of mechanics where you must have every single person do the mechanic correctly to not wipe. This also includes everyone alive as well especially in savage.
    (6)

  2. #392
    Player
    Mithia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    74
    Character
    Mithia Wryght
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by BarretOblivion View Post
    This is definately not true. There are plenty of mechanics where you must have every single person do the mechanic correctly to not wipe. This also includes everyone alive as well especially in savage.
    I have never argued against that. Of course, there are certain points where the boss will wipe you should one not be able to execute the mechanic correctly. But even then, the community has found different ways around that through smart use of LB3 or other shenanigans. The point is that you claimed that a tank death wouldn't matter, my counter-argument is that it doesn't matter for any role to die at any point since the game is made to be forgiving in terms of deaths during a boss fight as long as you are max-item level or slowly out gearing the encounter.

    Should a DPS die during any point of the fight, unless he had a mechanic he was assigned to resolve, nothing will change and you will just have to make up for his dps as a party. Should he have a mechanic, a healer or tank will have to step in for him, and that's that.
    Should a healer die, your only hope is that his co-healer has enough resources to sustain the healing until the other healer gets raised and has his mana back, this is excluding potential mechanics he will have to execute.

    Should however a tank die, the first thing you will notice is the boss turning towards the other tank if he had some enmity, then the question is, does this tank potentially have debuffs from the last tank buster? If so, another tank dies. Then hopefully by that time you had a RDM so he could raise the tank that died, because as per usual, swiftcast is on CD and hard raise takes some time. But say for example that the tank dies and the other tank did not have a debuff post tank buster. What if a tank buster is coming? These days tank busters are either share, invul or swap. But, invul is usually on CD since you cheese the first few tank busters anyway in most encounters. Means he has to share or swap, he can't swap, so either a dps sacrifices himself and you hope that his sacrifice was enough to soak up enough of the dmg or you also die. No tanks alive at that point? Easy wipe.

    So, as I said before, any death can be recovered.

    But on topic again, tanks are just expected to do their job since their rotation is "easy" anyway and so is their enmity build-up, what people often forget is the support nature that they provide to the group with their tank CD's, group-wide CD's, and above all reprisal for AoE's. On top of that they have to study the encounter thoroughly to understand when to use a CD and when to keep a CD to mitigate the incoming damage spikes. This study is also important to place the boss in ideal spots to keep things consistent for the dps so they can have full uptime and positionals.

    But hey, you can also wait a few weeks and then kill the boss because you outgear it anyway and then those small things don't really matter so any tank you find will do, but that also counts for dps and healers mind.
    (0)

  3. #393
    Player
    Mikey_R's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,518
    Character
    Mike Aettir
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Kabooa View Post
    I'll give it a whirl.

    This will cover only the concept of threat and the related damage.
    (NOTE: this is post #390 and is an attempt to try and make enmity meaningful. I have not read this thread fully so I am unsure if this poster wants enmity to be more prevalent or if they just wanted to take a stab at the challenge for some fun)

    The first thing I will note is that it sounds very very similar to SB tanking, but making it harder to keep the enmity with just DPS combos. Obviously, most people did not like that system, so proposing something similar isn't going to end well.

    However I want to address some points. From your first list, point B. You state that current tanks have an effective HP of ~335,000, which is not the case. Current highest gear tanks have about 160,000 HP which put then at about 200,000 eHP after accounting for the native 20% damage reduction. I have no idea where you get the 50% extra HP from, unless you are just saying that in relation to a DPS health pool. regardless, 200,000 eHP is what we are at now, which isn't too dissimilar to the 190,500 you wanted.

    For the tank damage, 80% of a DPS is what a tanks damage needs to be in order for it to come out even. So less is fine if that's the course you want to take, however, it's the paragraph after that I don't understand. Are you trying to say that the less DPS you do (down to a point) increases your enmity generation? If so, I guess this is a way to try and mitigate less skilled/geared tanks dragging the team down and prolonging runs for no reason. However, clarification on this would help.

    As for the 3 'provoke' replacements, the first one isn't too bad, but it seems pointless to have a 6 second taunt when you have an enmity dump, which is would be used in the same way that shirk is currently used, and current provoke works fine with that system. As for the other 2, provoking to 90% of the top seems like a good idea, you still have to take into account fight length. The longer the fight goes on, the larger that 10% becomes, making it harder and harder to catch up. This would of course mean the enmity dump would also have to be % based, but then, again, we end up with where we are with shirk, just without any benefit to the MT and it does damage. as for top +5%, if you don't need provoke, you can use it to keep gaining bigger and bigger leads on enmity, making any sort of enmity combo become pointless as the fight goes on. If you have 2 tanks, assuming you don't need provoke in the near future, you can have the OT provoke then the Mt provoke, giving the MT a little over a 10% boost to their enmity.

    I won't go into too much here, but in my opinion tying a tanks damage output to enmity is a bad move and helps noone. I made a post in the other topic where this was suggested:

    https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...exity-to-tanks (post #16)

    The long and Short of it is, there are way too many variables and inconsistencies involved with making a tank rotation based on enmity that it would be impossible to balance (and I do mean that it would literally be impossible).
    (1)

  4. #394
    Player
    gumas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    1,314
    Character
    Rawon Special
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 100
    i think tank actually got a little increase after their "comfortable" change, and iam one of them.

    ever since tank change to "very easy" mode as some people dub it, i finally decide to give it a try after 4+ years of playing this game. granted its only casual play and you will only see me as tank in DF tier dungeon/raid, and even that my playstyle is very simple (just spam aoe for mob and standard ST rotation for boss)

    my most worry being a tank is still their responsibility for the whole party and by natural in most run, party will see you as the point man of the group. iam glad now that tank is basically just "dps" that aggro the enemy.
    (1)

  5. #395
    Player
    Baxcel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    550
    Character
    Baxcel Farshot
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    The cause is that we only have 4 tanks to play and after we max out those 4 we have only healers and then DPS.. 4 classes will only get you so far.. an expecting more people to move to tank is something that just doesn't happen often.. especially with how tanks get treated in the NA servers... its easier to do roulette once a day and then do trusts or alt methods of leveling so you don't have to deal with the toxicity of the player base who force wall2wall pulls or vote kick the tank.
    (0)

  6. #396
    Player
    Nedkel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    2,023
    Character
    Chloe Lehideux
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 74
    But wall to wall is standard practice and if you dont do it, then you are not really a tank, there isnt really a excuse not to since newest dungeons are maximally dumbed down and there are only 2 groups to pull at one time.
    Team would have more use of a third DPS in place of a tank that does single pulls.

    They have dumbed down dungeons, they dumbed down tanks mechanics and its still not enough to fill the gap, its not the way they should follow their changes.
    Instead of trying to make tank jobs more engaging, interesting and more impactful they straight out nerfed them and forced them into being as bland and boring as possible. Maybe its not the case with PLD as he seem to receive major improvements, however DRK and WAR are the ones who have their gameplay made boring. I still remember playing a beast of a warrior in SB, i was able to stand my ground wall-to-wall without single healer spell thrown at me, that was freaking amazing, and what is left for me now? Nothing.
    Back in stormblood i was able to be unkillable god on DRK and WAR or god of pure destruction on war with tank stance off, it was amazing and it has been taken away from me.
    (2)
    Last edited by Nedkel; 06-22-2020 at 01:06 AM.

  7. #397
    Player
    Kabooa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    4,391
    Character
    Jace Ossura
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey_R View Post
    However I want to address some points. From your first list, point B. You state that current tanks have an effective HP of ~335,000, which is not the case. Current highest gear tanks have about 160,000 HP which put then at about 200,000 eHP after accounting for the native 20% damage reduction. I have no idea where you get the 50% extra HP from, unless you are just saying that in relation to a DPS health pool. regardless, 200,000 eHP is what we are at now, which isn't too dissimilar to the 190,500 you wanted.
    Yes. I am saying in relation to DPS hp, because there is constant comparison to DPS...DPS as well.

    The raw EHP of tanks currently is absurd, and alone cements their place in the raid team even if they were dealing approximately 30% less damage than they are now. You simply cannot replace it, as the moment non-tanks are getting hit, you not only shut them down, but shut down the healers. EHP isn't only the damage you take, it's the effectiveness of healing upon you.

    The passive stat bloat of the tanks is a problem.

    Regarding the rest, it's just, like, our opinions man.

    The "Damage" shirk would have a cooldown. It's less about spamming it for DPS and more about changing the aesthetic of a tank swap. The cooldown is ideally long enough to prevent spam, but short enough that a really good and knowledgeable tank pairing can eck out additional uses without endangering the group.

    The Provoke changes are not just for swapping threat, but recovery scenarios as well. "Top + a billion" alone removes the need of Shirk. The Shirk Button might as well just be a tank stance toggle at this point.

    There would be no more threat dumps / reductions for the DPS and healers. They only gain suppression effects. They can only help you, not do it for you, which is the way threat should be, and technically the way it is, if it didn't have a stupid 1000% modifier.

    The reason you, at base, deal less threat potential than a DPS/Healer puts out is bolded. If you have no threat of losing it, then it's pointless and shouldn't exist, which is our scenario right now. Just let whoever hits it first keep it and it only changes on provoke.
    (0)
    Last edited by Kabooa; 06-22-2020 at 01:47 AM.

  8. #398
    Player
    Lyth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Meracydia
    Posts
    3,883
    Character
    Lythia Norvaine
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Viper Lv 100
    Effective HP, by definition, is the total amount of damage that you can take, without healing, before you die. It is not a measurement of healing effectiveness.

    Healing effectiveness is what differentiates 'HP' and 'mitigation', and is the reason why the term 'EHP' is inadequate to capture our defensive stats in a single value.
    (2)

  9. #399
    Player
    Kabooa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    4,391
    Character
    Jace Ossura
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyth View Post
    Effective HP, by definition, is the total amount of damage that you can take, without healing, before you die. It is not a measurement of healing effectiveness.

    Healing effectiveness is what differentiates 'HP' and 'mitigation', and is the reason why the term 'EHP' is inadequate to capture our defensive stats in a single value.
    If there is a better concept and representation, I would like to hear it. I'm pretty old fashioned, and new design directions are pretty exciting.

    EHP is easily represented with a multiplier. It is an equivalent measurement of healing effectiveness.

    Get healed for 20,000 HP?

    A DPS is effectively healed for 25,000. A tank is effectively healed for ~40,000.
    (0)

  10. #400
    Player
    Lyth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Meracydia
    Posts
    3,883
    Character
    Lythia Norvaine
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Viper Lv 100
    EHP is a specific term with a very specific meaning. It doesn't matter if you don't understand how it's defined. It is what it is.
    (3)

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