Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

[HadesNight]

In contrast, Shirk is potentially a 'vaporize' button for killing people in your own party; that's also pretty annoying and intrusive on your gameplay, and there's far less justification for the skill to even exist outside of endgame raiding.

Are you talking pre-5.0 shirk? Before tank stance overtook all of life and everything?

I might be wrong, so I mean I'm happy to learn something new but shirk only gives 25% of your enmity to someone and with the enmity leads tanks stance gives now, it's pretty damn hard to shirk someone and have it stick unless its another tank that was close in enmity.

People don't even get close anymore. Like at all in public content. I haven't had a dps or a healer that is going to pull from me in ages. Shirk is no where near as disruptive as having your character controlled by someone else.

This doesn't seem relevant to me as a comparison.

I acknowledge I might be missing something here though, so def fill me in. I'm thinking I might be wrong here.

[RajNish]

You're right that I don't really care, I just came in to say that at cap, an SS that ticks fully on your target is a better use of a stack than a lustrate (regardless of context). Also, that unless rescue is used specifically to grief, it's not a big deal. Just as whatever unpleasant behavior led to the rescue isn't a big deal.

You don't care, but you come again and again to tell me something. I find it funny. Well, whatever it was, good luck with the game!

[Packetdancer]

Are you talking pre-5.0 shirk? Before tank stance overtook all of life and everything?

I might be wrong, so I mean I'm happy to learn something new but shirk only gives 25% of your enmity to someone and with the enmity leads tanks stance gives now, it's pretty damn hard to shirk someone and have it stick unless its another tank that was close in enmity.

It's far harder than it apparently was back in earlier versions (though I admit I'm going on hearsay here; I was gone for like... most of Heavensward and all of Stormblood, and only came back with Shadowbringers), but it's still possible. I've never seen it happen accidentally that a tank bumps shirk and vaporizes someone when they meant to click another ability, as I'm told was possible previously, but I have seen it done deliberately. AoE just enough to get initial aggro, single-target one mob without any AoEs after that, and you can let the rest of the party get close enough in enmity that you can shirk onto one of them. There was a tank trolling a sprout healer in Aurum Vale that way a while back when I was in Leveling roulette as DPS (leveling SAM); they'd run around the first room pulling everything but being careful not to generate too much enmity, select the healer, and Shirk onto them while laughing in party chat. (We vote-kicked the jackass.) It definitely requires intent to troll that way, though, because there's prep-work involved.

To be honest, it's easier to troll people by pulling a bunch but not building past initial enmity, then dropping tank stance and letting the mob eat the healer's face. (...and there may be an argument in there for forcing tank stance on in Light Party content and not allowing it to be turned off, now that I'm thinking about that. Honestly, that'd also spare the general annoyance of "oh crap I got level synced for this and forgot to turn tank stance back on" that sometimes happens, so I doubt that's a change that anyone would object to.)

Regardless, there's no reason I can see that Shirk should even exist outside of endgame raiding.

[Goji1639]

Again, this is all personal experience. I've honestly never seen, or noticed, Shirk being used at all in randoms. Apparently thanks to Tanks insane enmity generation it pretty much doesn't work unless you're using it on another tank, or you play in a VERY specific way to minimize your aggro without losing it.

As far as Rescue goes, I've had healers cost me most of Delirium to "save" me from getting tickled by a circle AoE around the boss. I've had a healer blow the Ten Chi Jin on my Ninja by pulling me out of an AoE I was only standing next to, late. I don't make threads about instances like this, or generally bring them up because at the very least they were well intended Rescues, but my life in this game would be better if I could turn that off.

I can't envision Shirk being as persistent a problem due to it's mechanical limitations, but if you feel it is then you should make a thread and make your case.

[HadesNight]

It's far harder than it apparently was back in earlier versions (though I admit I'm going on hearsay here; I was gone for like... most of Heavensward and all of Stormblood, and only came back with Shadowbringers), but it's still possible. I've never seen it happen accidentally that a tank bumps shirk and vaporizes someone when they meant to click another ability, as I'm told was possible previously, but I have seen it done deliberately. AoE just enough to get initial aggro, single-target one mob without any AoEs after that, and you can let the rest of the party get close enough in enmity that you can shirk onto one of them. There was a tank trolling a sprout healer in Aurum Vale that way a while back when I was in Leveling roulette as DPS (leveling SAM); they'd run around the first room pulling everything but being careful not to generate too much enmity, select the healer, and Shirk onto them while laughing in party chat. (We vote-kicked the jackass.) It definitely requires intent to troll that way, though, because there's prep-work involved.

To be honest, it's easier to troll people by pulling a bunch but not building past initial enmity, then dropping tank stance and letting the mob eat the healer's face. (...and there may be an argument in there for forcing tank stance on in Light Party content and not allowing it to be turned off, now that I'm thinking about that. Honestly, that'd also spare the general annoyance of "oh crap I got level synced for this and forgot to turn tank stance back on" that sometimes happens, so I doubt that's a change that anyone would object to.)

Regardless, there's no reason I can see that Shirk should even exist outside of endgame raiding.

Yeah, Np. 5.0 definitely changed tanking a bit in regard to enmity control. The only times I used shirk so far in game is the provoke shirk tank swaps during savage. If people are abusing it to any success these days they are probably playing dungeons out of tank stance for some reason?? (there are no dps penalties anymore though so that would be pointless lol). And yeah, that's definitely shitty but at the end of the day, the healer still had 100% control of his character. Rescue is different than shirk.

Abusing either is bad of course but this is a different thing. If rescue put a buff on me that gave me like 3 second invuln or something. THAT would make sense. But right now it moves me, against my will and people are doing it to force their playstyle on others.

Two separate kinds of bad.

[AnotherPerson]

Tank shirks still work in lower levels or when tank is for some reason undergeared and you have DPS that are overgeared. The DPS contributes enough during their DPS burst phase in their rotation that they can start to steal aggro from the tank, but not enough where the aggro will completely fall off (unless the tank for some reason wasn't using their AoE rotation consistently). A shirk at that point will definitely be enough to transfer aggro to kill a DPS. I've seen it happen before but those are very rare incidents as most tanks won't shirk intentionally. Then again, I've also had tanks that don't mitigate and will use shirk to avoid taking damage. ._. Duty Finder is truly a weird place.

[Packetdancer]

I can't envision Shirk being as persistent a problem due to it's mechanical limitations, but if you feel it is then you should make a thread and make your case.

I mean, I suppose it's "is this a persistent, constant problem with a skill that has a justified reason to exist—and as things stand now, can be crucial to one role fulfilling their purpose—but which might be better to remove and rebalance anything needed in the interests of peace in the community" versus "is this an occasional annoyance, but one there's literally no rational reason should be possible to happen in the first place because 95% of the time it can only be used to troll"?

So, yeah, on reflection, it may be fair to say that they aren't equivalent. Even if I think there's even less game balance justification for Shirk to exist. Rescue is clunky but can be versatile; pull someone who just rezzed and reflexively did something that cancelled rez immunity to safety, pull a sprout behind the meteors for cover in LotA or Syrcus, cleanse Doom on someone who hasn't noticed they have the debuff (hi it me when I DPS and get tunnel vision), or the admittedly cheeseball DPS uptime optimization trick in Susano using Rescue. Shirk... literally has zero potential legitimate use outside of tank swaps.

But you're right; after some thought, the situations aren't as much of a direct comparison.

As for Rescue itself, I still think a toggle would be way more disruptive than just removing Rescue. If you're going to remove it, just remove it and rework any content where people rely on it; don't make me have to play the 'will this or won't this work' game in the first place, because if there's a chance I use Rescue and it'll just be a waste of time due to people having it toggled off, I'm just not going to bother with Rescue at all. That's time I could use for something else, like being Green DPS. (NO HEAL, ONLY GLARE.)

And a skill that no one ever uses—but which some people might still expect you to use and yell at you for not using—might as well be pulled entirely. They can come up with something else useful to give healers as a role ability around that level range, like something that restores rez immunity when cast during the window rez immunity would've been present. So that when someone rezzes into the bad and smacks Second Wind without thinking, you can quickly put the rez immunity back for a couple of seconds and prevent having to immediately rez them again. (Since honestly, 90% of my infrequent Rescue use is to address that specific situation.)

[Packetdancer]

Then again, I've also had tanks that don't mitigate and will use shirk to avoid taking damage. ._. Duty Finder is truly a weird place.

I'm sorry for the double-post here, but I...



Just what.

[EnigmaticDodo]

I'm sorry for the double-post here, but I...



Just what.

shouldn't be surprised. there are level 80s who still do small pulls, blow all cooldowns on the first small pull, and just are all around bad.

[Coletergeist]

I'm sorry for the double-post here, but I...



Just what.

This had actually happened to me twice in high leveled dungeons, and I've been playing for only 2 months. Tis is sad.