Did the Ancient Amaurotians... (minor spoilers)

[sarehptar]

Can't add anymore information to the main discussion other than "They wore the same thing but looked different under the masks and robes;" however, I was wondering... Why do the Amaurotines that we see in the recording in the real Anamnesis Anyder also look like that? They weren't shades created by Emet-Selch, so they should actually appear as individuals rather than the indistinct forms the Amaurot shades take, shouldn't they? In before "Something something the stored memory degraded with time so they just so happen to look exactly the same as Emet imagines." XP

Also, somewhat ironic: the strongest of the Amaurotines (i.e. those most likely to need humbling) also seemed to have the ability to discern the literal color of each individual person's soul, so what purpose do identical robes serve for equalizing your population when the most exceptional members of your society see everyone glowing in a rainbow of individuality?

[Lauront]

The gift in question (bearing in mind the "hue" is more so an identifier than anything else), whilst not unique to them, was somewhat uncommon, so it would not really make a difference to the bulk of the masses. I really don't see much of an irony given the purpose they envisioned for wearing similar robes and masks. It wasn't so much to "humble" as it was to avoid engendering sentiments of disparity. Two different things. They celebrated scholarly and academic achievement, after all, as well as the art of debating, and even with creation magicks (where there was a difference in how the ability was expressed), the results were shared with the community. Those were the hallmarks of their mentality and the mindset behind it.

[Dawn_FF14]

They really... did not contradict each other.

Oda: Yes, they all wore the same thing, or similar enough to not tell the difference.
Yoshi: They all wore the same thing, though they didn't all look alike under their robes.

And yes, there IS a quest about you having to get yourself a robe and mask because your individuality of attire is offensive to Amaurotians (or at least childish) or whatnot.

Yes, I remember that side quest, which motivated me to go 153% against rejoining. You can berate my less being, but nobody questions my glamour.

[sarehptar]

The gift in question (bearing in mind the "hue" is more so an identifier than anything else), whilst not unique to them, was somewhat uncommon, so it would not really make a difference to the bulk of the masses. I really don't see much of an irony given the purpose they envisioned for wearing similar robes and masks. It wasn't so much to "humble" as it was to avoid engendering sentiments of disparity. Two different things.

The story does say that the gift to distinguish individuals by hue is rare, but given that Hythlodeus and Hades, two candidates for the Convocation, both possess it, I would be shocked if the other Convocation members didn't also have that ability.

I believe in the quest with the robes the Amaurotines are specifically anxious to get you into the right clothes to avoid scrutiny from those who would perceive you as flaunting your personal creations, as they assume the clothes you're wearing are a costume you've created, IIRC. In this case, I don't think there's must difference between avoiding disparity and exhibiting humility--in either situation, what they are saying is that exceptional people should not deliberately display their exceptionalism as it could incite jealousy in others.

But that seems somewhat ineffective, or at least ironic, when the people who are already the most exceptional in their society have another method by which to exhibit individuality (and potentially display disparity in skill/power) among each other. The masses exist in anonymity, while the powerful can identify their counterparts halfway across the city, if Emet-Selch is anything to go by. The strongest--and therefore most dangerous should they fall to pride or lust for advantage over others--entirely bypass the communal cohesion of wearing identical outfits. (And they even get special red masks to distinguish themselves visually too!) It is convenient, at best, that the majority of the Amaurotines are kept from feeling any sense of disparity by appearing identical, while the ones who exhibit the greatest amount of disparity and exceptionalism are unaffected by the fake anonymity entirely.

I.e., long story short--the masses are placated by a false sense of equality while positions of power are occupied by those who pose the most distinct threat to their society's value of uniformity and cohesion. A despair event horizon was probably inevitable.

[Shinklet]

IIRC one of them states that (paraphrasing) that frivolous clothing that sticks out is frowned upon as people should be judged on the merit of what they say and do, not what they look like.

However another reason for this would be that it would be costly to create and design many unique models.

[Lauront]

The story does say that the gift to distinguish individuals by hue is rare, but given that Hythlodeus and Hades, two candidates for the Convocation, both possess it, I would be shocked if the other Convocation members didn't also have that ability.

I believe in the quest with the robes the Amaurotines are specifically anxious to get you into the right clothes to avoid scrutiny from those who would perceive you as flaunting your personal creations, as they assume the clothes you're wearing are a costume you've created, IIRC. In this case, I don't think there's must difference between avoiding disparity and exhibiting humility--in either situation, what they are saying is that exceptional people should not deliberately display their exceptionalism as it could incite jealousy in others.

But that seems somewhat ineffective, or at least ironic, when the people who are already the most exceptional in their society have another method by which to exhibit individuality (and potentially display disparity in skill/power) among each other. The masses exist in anonymity, while the powerful can identify their counterparts halfway across the city, if Emet-Selch is anything to go by. The strongest--and therefore most dangerous should they fall to pride or lust for advantage over others--entirely bypass the communal cohesion of wearing identical outfits. (And they even get special red masks to distinguish themselves visually too!) It is convenient, at best, that the majority of the Amaurotines are kept from feeling any sense of disparity by appearing identical, while the ones who exhibit the greatest amount of disparity and exceptionalism are unaffected by the fake anonymity entirely.

I.e., long story short--the masses are placated by a false sense of equality while positions of power are occupied by those who pose the most distinct threat to their society's value of uniformity and cohesion. A despair event horizon was probably inevitable.

I don't particularly agree.

They were against two things based on this: 1) hoarding creations for the creator's use alone and 2) delighting in displays of disparity.

The purpose here is not to achieve or maintain anonymity, or even to "placate" the masses, nor is it to level down (i.e. "humble"), but to promote autonomy and to avoid risking covetousness. Given that they believed in vigorous debate and honing one's ability in creation magicks, they're cultivating achievement, but along different lines to what a society more preoccupied with material goods would need to. Their goal does not appear to be to deny the existence of differences, or to stamp them out, but rather to channel their use towards the communal good, drawing strongly on the virtues of civic duty you might find in an ancient Greek city-state. Of course, this is written to accommodate the unique attributes of the ancients, which rendered material wants a non-issue given their creation powers and so has some unique flourishes to it over and above that.

Furthermore, the Convocation was simply their instrument of governance and was again, meritocratic in nature. The original offices were named, out of respect, from their original occupants, due to their contributions, and the successors were expected to take on this name in lieu of their original name. Rather than delighting in disparity, the way the Amaurotines/ancients would have seen this would be using their unique talents for the good of all, and sound management of the star. Its positions were open to individuals of outstanding merit. I would also note that Sharlayan, founded on very similar ideals to Amaurot's, initially began with a system of direct participation in government, but as its size grew, this became unwieldy, resulting in the Forum being set up as a representative government, and Amaurot probably established this institution due to similar considerations plus, as before, to channel the abilities of its most talented members for the betterment of the star. Whether some could see the way Emet or Hythlodaeus did, is besides the point, as it's never implied everyone else was forced to be anonymous or use identical masks. It doesn't even imply that there were not potentially other ancients of exceptional merit outwith the Convocation since, after all, its positions were limited and could also be turned down - as Hythlodaeus did.

So I think the Convocation - and the masks that went with it - were a symbol of civic duty, of putting one's greater talents to use for the common good. It is plain that the offices came with significant duties attached to them. Whilst some may have been jealous of this, the Convocation enjoyed so much respect that the majority of the planet was willing to go along with its plan to summon Zodiark and provide the aether for him voluntarily. Even Venat's rival faction did not doubt the authenticity of their motives.

The destruction which gripped the world was aetherophysical in nature, with a subterranean sound precipitating loss of their powers and these running amok. Whilst their anxiety (for whatever reason) may have been the ultimate cause, it's not clear, and it's equally possible that even if it played a role, something else may have found a way to exploit this particular frailty of theirs and use it it to bring about their end.

Personally, I am not an egalitarian to anything even remotely approaching the degree to which Amaurot was, but I think their particular mode of governance and social organisation made sense given their unique attributes, and I don't really see any inherent self-contradiction to it, for whatever it'd be worth.

[Lauront]

Yes, I remember that side quest, which motivated me to go 153% against rejoining. You can berate my less being, but nobody questions my glamour.

It'd only really matter if Amaurot were rebuilt along the same lines. The Rejoinings, alone, would simply serve to restore to the star all its aether and reunite the soul fragments. So it's a separate matter.

[Darkobra]

They really... did not contradict each other.

Oda: Yes, they all wore the same thing, or similar enough to not tell the difference.
Yoshi: They all wore the same thing, though they didn't all look alike under their robes.

And yes, there IS a quest about you having to get yourself a robe and mask because your individuality of attire is offensive to Amaurotians (or at least childish) or whatnot.

I just finished that quest. It WAS an aether current quest. They mentioned getting similar robes to everyone else because individuality breeds desire, which can breed greed and corruption and hate. Conformity of everyone wearing the robes means everyone is calm and it stops their creation that they think about coming true.

They also had a place where you can pitch creations and they get deemed whether or not they're a threat or a boon to people.

[Melichoir]

I.e., long story short--the masses are placated by a false sense of equality while positions of power are occupied by those who pose the most distinct threat to their society's value of uniformity and cohesion. A despair event horizon was probably inevitable.

Well pretty much. There is definitely an underlying sense of Hubris and hypocrisy among the Amaurotians. A false sense of modesty.

[sarehptar]

I don't particularly agree... The purpose here is not to achieve or maintain anonymity, or even to "placate" the masses, nor is it to level down (i.e. "humble"), but to promote autonomy and to avoid risking covetousness.

Furthermore, the Convocation was simply their instrument of governance and was again, meritocratic in nature... So I think the Convocation - and the masks that went with it - were a symbol of civic duty, of putting one's greater talents to use for the common good. It is plain that the offices came with significant duties attached to them. Whilst some may have been jealous of this, the Convocation enjoyed so much respect that the majority of the planet was willing to go along with its plan to summon Zodiark and provide the aether for him voluntarily. Even Venat's rival faction did not doubt the authenticity of their motives.

Well, not to really get into a debate or anything, but you're splitting hairs pretty finely to support the Amaurotines here. Not that I blame you, but still!

"Reducing disparity" does involve reducing individuality/promoting anonymity, regardless of how we want to pretty that up, and discouraging the sense of "have and have not" to prevent self-aggrandizement and jealousy (which the quest text says leads to violence) is no different than enforcing humility to prevent pride. The peace in their utopian society is maintained by a deliberate, communal limitation on self promotion. Of course it is willing on the part of all parties, but in effect, they (the people themselves) are still keeping their own covetousness and violence (which the quest text says lurks in every heart) placated/mollified by simply eliminating things to flaunt over each other--they're removing the spark, not the fuel. The quest itself says the Amaurotines aren't inherently pure but rather seem highly conscious of their nature as flawed beings, making the intentional choice to maintain order in their society by functioning as a collective--at the obvious cost to individuality.

As for the Convocation... what use does Utopia have for a meritocracy? I can't believe I'm quoting Gaius van Baelsar, but this system leads to only one end: "It is ever the strong who dictate the fate of the weak." Elevating exceptional individuals into positions of authority over others inherently creates disparity and concentrates more power in the hands of those who already possess it over those who do not.

Don't mistake me--I know some people do, but I don't actually think that the Amaurotines brought about their own downfall via hubris. I thought the story was pretty clear that it was an outside force that unwound the very laws of existence, which they (likely at least) can't be held responsible for.

But we, the player, see the impacts of their flawed way of thinking embodied in the Sundering and the later Ascians, who view themselves (or at least Emet-Selch does) as heroes and would-be saviors of their people, the shepherds of a lost flock. The sense of civic duty becomes a sense of responsibility for the masses, becomes inherently entwined with a sense of being justified and from there, particularly among the Ascians (probably encouraged by tempering), becomes a direct sense of superiority even over others of their own kind.

I was merely noting that it was ironic for a culture that eschews individuality to be led by those who basically can't unsee it, but that such a system contributed to the present state of their people, in which the exceptional few have cast aside virtually every moral value of their culture in a futile bid to undue the consequences of their own decision-making, is not surprising.

Like, I love the Amaurotines, but recognizing their failures and the flaws that contributed to their collapse is definitely part of that love for me.

I am so sorry OP.