Suggesting Ideas for Blue Mage with feedback & Removing Limited Job Status

[Waaltar]

Then there is PvP where the versatility of BLU would outshine anything the other roles could accomplish, so everyone would end up playing BLU and it would be BLU vs BLU all day.

Except PVP abilities are seperate. So BLU's pvp set can be whatever they want it to be. If they want BLU to be more like BLU then I'd suggest just changing it a lot every now and then would be one way to accomplish that. Ranged for one patch, tank for another, heals for another, etc. That or they could come up with a nice little ability set that is just right to represent BLU.

Right now melee rules so maybe a BLU intro design could be part of the next cycle where the wheel comes around and ranged have their revenge again.

[Melichoir]

Snip

The Trouble Im seeing wiht your position, if I understood it, is the issue with hype and why its not even 'side content'.

In regards to hype:

Best of my knowledge, they never promised you or anyone anything in regards to the job, or even future jobs. People assumed "FFXI had BLU, therefor FFXIV will do the exact same thing" and got hyped up about that. That is people problems, something that comes up frequently within these forums or on Reddit. People run wild with what they think should be, rather then what the Devs give us, and then get angry because it doesnt live up to their standards. And I get that "Well they did it in FFXI", but that usually is an oversimplified answer that almost never takes into account how that game worked. More broadly, how BLU was as a class has been pretty amorphous, where it changes from game to game in the FF series. It's biggest core aspect was learning non conventional spells, I suppose. If measured by that metric, then it has accomplished that aspect.

But the devs, best of my knowledge, never said "Yes, were gonna give you a brand new classes you can use in the fullest aspect like any other, no catches." So the issue with Hype is more a player base expectation than a dev one typically. While we can argue how well devs communicate their message to us at times, it should be well understood that the player base needs to own up to its own misconceptions. Half the outrage at Devs comes from players expecting something the devs never promised.

Side Content:

This is completely subjective of what makes side content. You defined it as something that intertwines and feeds into the main content, but that is a standard you are arbitrarily creating. If it doesnt contribute in a way you say, it isnt 'side content'. Consider even how you define it too. What does "Contribute to the overall content" mean? What is the 'overall content', because at face value that would imply anything happening in the game that you can do.

There are plenty of people who see it as side content and define it as "Content you do on the side of the main content" or simply "Non MSQ or current Raid Content". Side content may or may not contribute to the main content. Housing is side content - nothing about it contributes to MSQ or gearing the current tier. PVP is side content and only rewards Allegory if youre lvl capped, so that's how it relates to main content. Gold Saucer is side content as a whole. Hildebrand Quests are side content. Holiday events, Special cross overs, and the like are side content. There are many kinds of side content that have many kinds of pay off, some more and some less connected to pushing the MSQ/current tier. There's so much in the game that if left defined by your definition wouldnt be side content but just mini games and 'doesnt count'. But a lot of other people beg to differ.

Even then, what you are suggesting doesnt seem to make to much sense. Take your position and consider crafting - Depending on how I deal with that, that is or isnt side content purely by the actions I take and not by the design of it in game. If I do nothing but craft and do it specifically to make gil so I can buy glamour and do zero to interact or progress the current tier or main content, it is not 'side content' but a mini game simply because I am not doing something that intertwines with the main aspect of the game?

The broadest definition that makes most sense at the end of the day is side content is things you do that isnt directly MSQ related.

More importantly: Why does it matter how you define it? The point of games, broadly, is fun and entertainment. The question shouldnt be "What kind of content is this", but rather "Is this fun? Am I enjoying myself? Is this worth my time?" And this is something that people have to ask and answer for themselves. There are literally people who dont see the MSQ as fun or enjoyable, but love the raid scene, or doing pvp, or just want to have a pretty house and cool glamours. They dont give 2 damns about the MSQ, but they get satisfaction from other aspects of the game that they feel is worthwhile. And that is fine. It isnt important what you call it, just that its something you can do in the game. And that comes with ups and downs.

Beyond that, what they will add with BLU is probably more of the same, much like with most content. Refining it, adding more skills, possibly adding a gauge in eventually for more variabled play, new challanges. This all seems likely. But making it on the same level as MNK or WAR, being able to do current savage content with it without rebuilding the class and adding in limitations or restrictions isnt likely to happen. Not without rebuilding the class.

[TeraTyrantShadic]

The Trouble Im seeing wiht your position, if I understood it, is the issue with hype and why its not even 'side content'.

In regards to hype:

Best of my knowledge, they never promised you or anyone anything in regards to the job, or even future jobs. People assumed "FFXI had BLU, therefor FFXIV will do the exact same thing" and got hyped up about that. That is people problems, something that comes up frequently within these forums or on Reddit. People run wild with what they think should be, rather then what the Devs give us, and then get angry because it doesnt live up to their standards. And I get that "Well they did it in FFXI", but that usually is an oversimplified answer that almost never takes into account how that game worked. More broadly, how BLU was as a class has been pretty amorphous, where it changes from game to game in the FF series. It's biggest core aspect was learning non conventional spells, I suppose. If measured by that metric, then it has accomplished that aspect.

But the devs, best of my knowledge, never said "Yes, were gonna give you a brand new classes you can use in the fullest aspect like any other, no catches." So the issue with Hype is more a player base expectation than a dev one typically. While we can argue how well devs communicate their message to us at times, it should be well understood that the player base needs to own up to its own misconceptions. Half the outrage at Devs comes from players expecting something the devs never promised.

I wasn't there during the initial announcement of Blue Mage unfortunately and I wish I did, though at the time I had my own issues before I came back to the game full time. But regarding the hype, there were not any promises made of Blue Mage being made, however I’d like to point out that the Live Letter XVII Q&A Summary (09/11/14), Yoshida statement at 0:53:21 did not mention anything about bringing it into the game, but it is insinuated (whether intentionally or not) that Blue Mage was planned to come into FFXIV but with the challenge of how to go about it with the current MMO setting. For 5 years they have been waiting and hoping for Blue Mage to become a class they could main and yet it was not meant to be, so I can understand why some felt hurt by the move of making it a limited job. Feeling aside though, the statement made by Yoshida himself 6 years ago (At the time of this posting) could have speculated to others that Blue Mage was in the works.

In terms of relatability to FFXI, these are two very different systems which I have briefly touched on in the document. However I am planning on adding more since it is almost 1 week after the upload of the document and it will be amended soon with my recent findings in FFXI and throughout the internet regarding Blue Mages in FFXIV. Even if Blue Mages changes from game to game the core aspect of the class is customization and adaptability with the use of monster spells/skills they cast, which at the moment the developers have done a good job. Praising aside, their current attempt managed to split the community in half about the opinions of Blue Mage and there could be room for improvements to improve such a job if it were implemented in this kind of MMO while retaining its uniqueness and core identity. Which is why I suggested the job gauge path to be more focused upon it. There is such a mechanic that can easily make it intertwined together perfectly. Unbridle Learning (Allowing access to certain blue spells to be casted) and Unbridle Wisdom (Allow certain blue magic spells to be casted but instantaneously) are the abilities from FFXI, it doesn’t have to be the same name-wise or ability-wise but you can take inspiration from that and do something like a Job Gauge based on it which I have previously discussed. Hence why some expected it to be similar to FFXI, the foundation has and was already set and Yoshida acknowledges FFXI (Since he was also in the works of FFXI Remake for mobile). So taking ideas from an already existing MMO and implementing it into FFXIV was not a far fetched idea, granted they are two different systems but nevertheless it can be done without reworking too much about the job. Which is why some are angry from that speculation, it is not because they want it to be exactly the same but because the building blocks were there for them. It may be incomplete but it is a piece of the puzzle to solve it, whether the developers ignored it or not we do not know as they operate within their own methods. Whether their rage about Blue Mage being not similar to FFXI is the majority of opinions I’d say there is more than just “It because it is not the same as FFXI” opinions. They are a wide variety of reasonings and some if not most are valid reasonings and the developers do need to take heed to the feedback.

On a more personal note had you started since the beginning of ARR you would very well know Yoshida by now on how he present things and in a more positive and fun way (Not in a bad way I think making the fans speculate is fine an all just be careful on how you tend to go about it.). He would leave little tidbits of information or be direct. We have 0 ideas especially before a new expansion. Remember him wearing a Spider T-shirt before the Fan Fest Europe for Stormblood started (I was there personally to witness the event and have a great time for myself and it was amazing)? A few minutes later he comes back out dressing as a Samurai. He can be either direct or indirect which is good and bad but good cause sometimes the community will build speculation and hype regarding what may be coming next. So saying players should own up to their misconception is somewhat agreeable to an extent, most of the time their speculation was on point give or take but for Blue Mage, the misconception of it being similar should be thrown out of the door, however to be a proper job they can main in future content? They were hoping for such a thing to happen and even now some still want to main the job in current content.

More importantly: Why does it matter how you define it? The point of games, broadly, is fun and entertainment. The question shouldnt be "What kind of content is this", but rather "Is this fun? Am I enjoying myself? Is this worth my time?" And this is something that people have to ask and answer for themselves. There are literally people who dont see the MSQ as fun or enjoyable, but love the raid scene, or doing pvp, or just want to have a pretty house and cool glamours. They dont give 2 damns about the MSQ, but they get satisfaction from other aspects of the game that they feel is worthwhile. And that is fine. It isnt important what you call it, just that its something you can do in the game. And that comes with ups and downs.

Beyond that, what they will add with BLU is probably more of the same, much like with most content. Refining it, adding more skills, possibly adding a gauge in eventually for more variabled play, new challanges. This all seems likely. But making it on the same level as MNK or WAR, being able to do current savage content with it without rebuilding the class and adding in limitations or restrictions isnt likely to happen. Not without rebuilding the class.

I can agree that people can enjoy the game however they want. However I am more on the point of Blue Mages being an actual job than something on the side. We have seen how new content was added for Blue Mage and massive reworking is not all that necessary, cause right now they managed to do it with the current spells. Not at its fullest extent but still it works, reworking or restarting a project is a big waste of cost and we should proceed forward with the skills in mind. Massive rework or rebuilding is not needed because the stage has yet to be set, mainly where is the job gauge?

Referring back to your main important question, fun is a very subjective term. If people find it fun who is to stop them and if people don’t find it fun again who is to stop them. The definition of fun can never be truly answered. Mine was’t the defined version of side content or how people should enjoy it. However I would like to point out that this opinion varies between people. I find it fun even after clearing savages and even then I still play it hoping it will be a standardized job while retaining its core identity which can be done.

This all boils down to how we introduce Blue Mage’s Job Gauge cause in Stormblood it is when they introduced the Job Gauges for all Jobs and when they do can we implement it to the current game? I can give a straight answer and say Yes because what they needed to focus their time on was the Job Gauge cause if you want to keep the core identity of a class throughout the series give it a gauge and see how you can do it which will be amended in the document. More to come on that soon (stick around to see the new version).

In terms of savages and extreme trials I have done them but I am not sure about you, but there is no way of cheesing the mechanics unless the boss is very low on HP like at least 5%, some are 12%. If you had experience as a blue mage in these savage instances you could understand they can very well fit into the current raiding tier even with their overpowered abilities being useless in alexander cause the fight was mechanics focus and timing is essentially key and to go a step further you cannot use these abilities on the main boss itself. What is to say the next tier of raid is gonna be against Blue Mages when they cannot cheese the raid, then the balance is already there and set cause nowadays it is all about mechanics and DPS-Check (A tight one at that might I add). This is all explaining just for savages using Blue Mages into them and that is not considering casual content. If you’re worried Blue Mage will cheese Ultimate raids, I’ll say in one sentence. You cannot cheese ultimate because everything has a certain step and it requires extreme coordination and planning with a dedicated group willing to spend at least 4 hours a day on ultimate raids everyday for a month or two. As for casual content, some if not most bosses are immune to the overpowered spells, who is to say that this will also be applied to Stormblood. Before bosses there are mobs, yes we can just Level 5 death after group them or just crowd control them with sleep and deep freeze but we did crowd controlling back in ARR and even then with Level 5 Death, it has a very long CD plus the fact that it has a chance to miss, you can just increase the chances of missing higher or 50%, where 50% of the time it will hit or miss.

Overall I have said it before and I will say it again. Blue Mage can become a standardized job retaining it core identity and become multiplayer content available in time, since we are at the stage of near completion with one more aspect of the job missing specifically the job gauge, hence the need to rework is close to 0 but minor adjustments of certain spells and skills is bound to happen. It has happened to classes before in ARR and HW, it will happen again with players always finding a way to complain about the nerf of certain damages getting lower damage potency.Not everyone can be pleased and if that what it takes to bring Blue Mage to the current raiding I welcome it cause from there on we can bring beast master and puppet master to the meta as well, it is doable and possible but with the necessity of patience and inspiration and most importantly constructive community feedback.

[TurtlesAWD]

If your thoughts are based on facts, the facts aren't good enough and don't represent enough people. If you go by impressions, it's not good enough because you don't have statistics and facts.

So let's talk about something that I think is key to helping understand the frustration here beyond just fact/opinion: Inductive versus Deductive reasoning.

A deductive argument is one in which the premises guarantee the conclusion. Deductive arguments have 2 properties: Being Valid, and being Sound. A Valid argument is one where the premises do in fact guarantee the conclusion, while a Sound argument is one that is Valid, and also each premise is true. For example:

All Blue Mages are Disciples of Magic. The Primary Attribute for Disciples of Magic is Intelligence. Therefore the Primary Stat for Blue Mages is Intelligence.

This is argument is Valid (if the Premises are true, the conclusion must be true). And because the premises are true, we know the argument is sound.

A valid, but unsound, argument could look something like the following:
All Blue Mages are Disciples of Magic. All Disciples of Magic use Katanas as their primary weapon. Therefore, all Blue Mages use Katanas as their primary weapon.

If the premises of this argument were true, the conclusion would be true. It is therefore a valid argument, however, obviously no DoM uses katanas, so the premise being false means the argument is Unsound.

It should be noted that for the purpose of being Sound, an argument can have all true premises, and a true conclusion, and still be Unsound, if the premises don't support the conclusion. For example:
Some Disciples of Magic can access the Masked Carnivale. Blue Mages are a Disciple of Magic. Therefore, Blue Mages can access the Masked Carnivale.

In this case all of the premises are true, and the conclusion is true. But the argument is unsound, because I could have just as easily said "Some Disciples of Magic can access the Masked Carnivale. Black Mages are a Disciple of Magic. Therefore, Black Mages can access the masked Carnivale. Although the premises are still true here, the conclusion is, naturally, not. The way in which the argument is constructed - whether the conclusion does in fact follow from the premises - is relevant to whether the conclusion we're intended to believe follows necessarily from the statements that back it up.

To make a deductive argument that Blue Mage is a failed class based on deductive reasoning is, for this reason, going to be likely impossible - as has been noted, to get the kind of data necessary to guarantee the truth of our premises will require metrics and information that players don't have access to, not to mention that information has to be argued in a way that disallows for extraneous information to have led us to misidentify cause and effect, or relevance of information.

So with that in mind let's take a look at the other kind of arguments, Inductive.
Inductive arguments don't guarantee the truth of their conclusion, they can only argue, weakly or strongly, for something's probability. let's consider a pretty straightforward example:
In the morning today, the sun came up. In the past at the start of each day since humans have been recording history, the sun has come up. Therefore, tomorrow morning, the sun will come up.

The argument for the sun coming up tomorrow based on the fact that on available fact that on all previous days it has done so is pretty strong - but obviously can't be considered necessarily true. The argument doesn't account for the kind of collisions or explosions that happen in space which would throw off the underlying gravitational mechanics keeping the earth in the sun's orbit. A deductive, Sound argument that proves the sun is going to come up tomorrow would likely involve a lot of math.

So because we likely don't have the kind of information we need to make a good deductive argument about blue mage popularity, our argument can only really be inductive. The statements "No one in my FC plays BLU. No one on my FL or linkshells play it. There are 0 groups in PF right now." are essentially an inductive argument meant to prove exactly that. But, well, every single one of these can be counterargued by someone's personal experience indicating the exact opposite. My free company may play blue. My friends and linkshells may play it. I may see 5 blue mage groups in party finder right now (okay, this is an exaggeration. I see one.)

So I don't particularly think it's a strong inductive argument. Why would I believe a broad claim about the community as a whole based on your personal experience, rather than my own?

[Mariel_Crystallie]

Except PVP abilities are seperate. So BLU's pvp set can be whatever they want it to be. If they want BLU to be more like BLU then I'd suggest just changing it a lot every now and then would be one way to accomplish that. Ranged for one patch, tank for another, heals for another, etc. That or they could come up with a nice little ability set that is just right to represent BLU.

Right now melee rules so maybe a BLU intro design could be part of the next cycle where the wheel comes around and ranged have their revenge again.

PVP with BLU ... sounds fun... but yeah they gonna make some new skills for BLU or else its gonna be a disaster lol... Sprint > Swiftcast > Level 5 Death ....

[SpiralMask]

PVP with BLU ... sounds fun... but yeah they gonna make some new skills for BLU or else its gonna be a disaster lol... Sprint > Swiftcast > Level 5 Death ....

ram's voice into SD combo

[VictorTheed]

I'd like it if they gave Blu a move were your character turns into like a blue squishy blob that hovers over the area you activate that move at for time, it could be a party wide DMG reduction for the people that get inside of it as well as yourself.

Think of it like that Astro bubble they pop for DMG reduction but you turn into a blue blob forits duration.

[Seraphor]

There's really no reason why they couldn't make a PVP skillset for BLU, seeing as every other job has a unique PVP skillset regardless of level, so they may not even have those skills outside of the wolves den as it is.

[TeraTyrantShadic]

Being honest here, I think Blue Mage in PvP will be more or less a situational thing considering it has a lot of spells in both melee range and caster range. The overpowered spells can be excluded as they may break the PvP landscape, those with Damage over Time (DoT) can be reduced or have around the same time as a Black Mage's Thunder or a Summoner's Bio. Debuffs however can have a shorter duration maybe around 5 - 10 seconds.

We can have another separate tab if they choose to allow Blue Mage to join in PvP, one where they can set their spells for PvP at maximum, 10 spells to set for a match of any kind in PvP. So their PvP Profile will be the same setup for every other class showing the spells they have set for their matches.

Also allowing the usage to change spells mid battle in PvP i find it doable since we can still change classes midway in PvP. However I only know about front line, if this isn't the case for rival wings or any of the other modes please do tell.

[Mariel_Crystallie]

ram's voice into SD combo

right... zoning out enemy using chimera skills... Dragon Voice!! here's come bzzztt time!!