Final Fantasy XIV’s healer problem and how it’s kind of unsolvable

[Billythepancake]

Forgot to set it to Shiva alone. Those numbers from Edens Verse (All Bosses). I did say i welcomed pointing out where i messed up lol. Thanks for being civil ^^

Using the log posted though, removing the Healers puts the raid total at 81,939. So that party would only have needed to find an extra 3k~ or so DPS from the other 6 members of the party. Which equates to 500 dps per person.

Given that log is from May 3, they would almost certainly have better gear by now. Hell, even just fine tuning their play could net them that extra per person.



Is that not the purpose of Savage? To BE that final challenge that requires you to put your best efforts into?

Even ultimate isn't designed for perfect play, why would savage be designed for the DPS/tanks to play absolutely perfectly while the healers suck their thumbs and contribute nothing?

[Seraphor]

Is that not the purpose of Savage? To BE that final challenge that requires you to put your best efforts into?

If anything, that's what Ultimate is.
Savage has a decent playerbase, with about 5-10% of players taking part in it, which is thousand of players.
Yet only a handful are expected to clear it while it's current content? I don't think so.

[AdamFyi]

Given that log is from May 3, they would almost certainly have better gear by now. Hell, even just fine tuning their play could net them that extra per person.

Looking at that group’s total clears, they have 6 weeks worth of loot and 34 total clears before May 3rd. More than likely they all already hit the max item level cap by the time this was logged.

Is that not the purpose of Savage? To BE that final challenge that requires you to put your best efforts into?

That got shifted to Ultimate, and even then it’s just a ramped up version of Savage.

[ForteNightshade]

I'm aware of the quote, but actual statistics prove it wrong. Maybe back when the quote came out, 5 years ago, it was correct, but it is literally no longer the case. Even in current Shiva, you need around 85-86k rDPS to clear e8s, running with the 4 best DPS and 2 best tanks in the world, all bis, all playing perfectly, you'd be just shy of making that check, you would hit enraged if healers did not DPS. Maybe you would make it if you got super lucky on crits/direct hits/crit direct hits, you might be able to JUST squeak by. There is no conceivable way that the fight was not intended to have healers DPS, regardless of what Yoshi-P says

Even in 2015 that statement was questionable given Gordias and Midas existed. I suspect it was more intended to mean healer DPS wasn't expected in the same capacity as tanks and actual DPS but that some level of damage contribution was still required.

But for the sake of argument. Lets take this statement at face value. This would mean the developers actually design fights where two players can literally stand 50-70% of their time doing absolutely nothing while the remaining six are not afforded such a luxury. Back then, if tanks weren't DPSing they would lose aggro. If the DPS themselves only spammed 123, you'd hit enrage. Basically, if everyone played to the supposed standard of "pure healers," you'd fail the content.

Is that not the purpose of Savage? To BE that final challenge that requires you to put your best efforts into?

Two players out of six being able to play on their phones for 50-70% of the fight are "not putting their best effort into it." Like I said above, if the remaining six played the same way, you'd fail.

[AdamFyi]

Anywaaaay, putting that Shiva thing aside and hopping back to the topic cause I think this discussion is actually very interesting. I personally don’t think it’s feasible for the developers to shift the Healer paradigm from what it is now to a more “constant healing” role without breaking the game entirely. Would require a lot of time and resources to have to fix everything from the ground up to accommodate that change—something the devs don’t really have.

Looking over that quote from earlier, the devs do want to shift Healers to healing more, but I don’t think that they necessarily mean that there should be more gcd healing. Evidently, a lot of the tools we got for Shadowbringers are absurdly powerful for ability healing. Trying to play ShB content while ignoring any actions gained from 72-80 surprisingly makes for a whole different experience when testing it out. That’s not to say that they should nerf ability healing across the board though. I think they found a sweet spot with that. They just need to figure out something for healers to do during downtime.

Considering their reasonings for making Healer dps more accessible to more players, it stands to reason that they’re not going to budge on this stance. They have the data for it and accessibility was the primary reason for this change according to that interview. So to implement something for Healers to do during downtime, they would have to follow their philosophy of it being (a) accessible for majority of the players, and (b) not interfere with healing. The changes would have to be feasible and not require a significant rework to function.

• Ast has already met those criteria—there’s already a lot to do during downtime as is but I would love to see them increase the potency of Earthly Star’s damage component so that it’s a lot more satisfying to place and position properly. Rewards proper star placement while also giving them that extra firepower. The card system is another beast in of itself so I’ll just put that in the corner for now.

• Whm could possibly bring back Aero 3 but have it function similar to Shadow Fang and Sonic Break; a instant-cast GCD dot that you apply that has double the cooldown of the base dot duration. Gives the Whm an extra tool for weaving and movement allowing for more leniency. This also limits the number of dots that can be applied at any given point in a 24-man raid to prevent dot culling as these dots are only active for a portion of the encounter.

• Sch is a little tougher to accommodate. Maybe they could have an extra action attached to their Faerie instead of adding another GCD dot to its current kit. For illustration purposes, we’ll call it Fey Flare; a strong GCD nuke from the Faerie on the target enemy that uses a certain amount from the Fey Gauge that has a decent cooldown (~30s ish maybe?). If not, they could also make it an instant GCD that consumes gauge (maybe 20?) for every use which introduces a risk if used poorly. Breaks the monotony of spamming Broil too. This simultaneously resolves the issue of few tools to use the Fey Gauge on, and refunds the player if any Aetherflow stacks were used for healing. Of course, this does mean that Energy Drain’s potency would need to be lowered to compensate. Having the potential potency loss from Energy drain be lowered would also serve to make it feel less unsatisfactory when forced to used a healing ability.

This kind of topic is very interesting to me as I really like reading everyones ideas (not the part where people are at each other’s throats ofc lol), on how they would solve the current issues. Gives some perspectives on what people are looking for and what people don’t want. Considering how the developers are building the game is also important too as deviating from what they envision or desire could potentially break something on a fundamental level, and we’d end up with a broken game or healers stripped off of all identity. :O

[Mindiori]

In most ways, I see simplification/removal or 'dumbing down' as taking not just options away from a player. But learning and growth potential too (which I believe is for their personal betterment here and otherwise). So its always been something I've hated passionately.

As someone said early on 'Tunnel vision' is a player issue. To forcefully take away options, simply because people refuse to learn or practice, might sound good to a stats sheet but to fun (arguably the purpose of gaming itself, regardless of how subjective); its detrimental. I feel as if Scholars alone, will almost universally attest to that now. Its important to give people a comfortable journey in (the coming changes to ARR probably serve as an example of similar) but to have no long term depth beneath the surface? That really just kills it. The sense of progress and time invested.

Some comments here, the such like;

''They don't need hugely complex DPS toolkits but something as simple as more DoT management or maybe a tank-esque rotation would certainly go a long way.''

Is effectively correct. Ironically the opposite of dumbing down, albeit a artificial layering and juggling in area's away from their main role - yet add complexity and without bloat. Making someone who realizes their role isn't dps but healing; have to focus more to achieve an optimum result from that damage. That extra depth, means that the most lazy will slide back into their healing role; whilst those who aren't and make an effort have considerably more versatility and options to play with.

If DPS must polish their movement and timing to an extent that its more efficient and have room to do so; but healers lack that because of a overcreep of their effectiveness - then you must give them more to do aside from it as they once had. To engage with. Or it is simply mundane and you give them no joy - ergo, no reason to push the boundaries of the broader role. Especially when the common attitude of making it 'accessible to the braindead'; risks leaving you with a dps kit of a single button.

Like most I don't feel the article is correct in its entirety or lends much to anything that wasn't known before. But I'll stop waffling here, as any time I encounter Gemina I'm reminded how much the strange forum crush I have on her garbles my coherence. In any event, this; Gigantic problems often have a swift and simple solution. It just eludes the convoluted mind.

Doing the opposite of blindly removing things, homogenizing/being lazy and actually adding some well thought out depth to healer management, will work wonders. Sometimes 'mindlessly simple' is exactly that. And it isn't a good thing for role retention because eventually even the simpletons learn - realize how hollow it is and quit.

[ForteNightshade]

[I]• Ast has already met those criteria—there’s already a lot to do during downtime as is but I would love to see them increase the potency of Earthly Star’s damage component so that it’s a lot more satisfying to place and position properly. Rewards proper star placement while also giving them that extra firepower. The card system is another beast in of itself so I’ll just put that in the corner for now.

I have to disagree because you run into the Assize problem where the healing aspect of Earthly Star no longer matters. You just use it on CD for damage. At this point, Assize may as well be a DPS button because it's actually better to GCD heal than delay it unless you know you won't lose a usage. Earthly hasn't fallen into this problem solely because of its low damage potency.

[Sylve]

They just need to figure out something for healers to do during downtime.

Increasing the frequency of damaging mechanics would basically remove 'downtime'. It doesn't need to hit harder, Just more frequently.

Currently, Tank busters tend to come up at around the same time as anti tankbuster cooldowns. AoEs tend to come out in intervals that pair with the cooldowns on our powerful AoE abilities.

I disagree completely that that the game would need to be rebuilt to allow for an increase in mechanical frequency. Never needed changes to BCOB etc to account for the current Tanks/Healers vs what they were when BCOB came out.
It'd just mean that compared to newer content, the old stuff would feel a lot easier when we get synced down. Hell, It'd almost work like a training scenario for new Healers to encourage them to utilize DPS when no Healing needs to be done and you can spare the MP for it.

Hypothetically, they could easily use the dungeon progression from 81 - 90 (Or whatever new level cap will be) to gradually increase the frequency of mechanics, getting faster until at cap the mechanics would be happening at a pace where oGCD abilities cannot hope to cover them all.
We'd need to make decisions about when to use an oGCD over using a GCD Heal based on MP levels, Party state, upcoming mechanics, overall cooldown state, Tank mitigation state etc.

We currently don't ever use Cure/Benefic/Physik because we have effectively infinite MP thanks to a plethora of free healing Abilities to use over any GCD Healing. Forcing us to use GCDs on Healing would give value to the traits associated with them for MP management.
Although SCH would need something for Physik, Perhaps even something as simple as returning MP when when used on a target with Galvanize in effect.

Doing DPS as a Healer would be about skillfully utilizing your kit to force open windows where you can safely throw out a few GCDs on damage.
Right now there is literally zero skill involved in doing DPS as a Healer, and its nothing to do with the rotations. We simply memorize the script and press the right cooldown at the right moment when the boss politely asks for it.
Back in ARR, Cleric Stance and its proper use was what separated average Healers from excellent Healers. In a world where damage is more frequent, that distinction could be moved to how well a Healer manages their MP and utilizes their kit to enable their use of DPS.

Spending more time utilizing Healing GCDs would help break up the monotony of spamming Glare/Malefic/Broil for extended periods, as they'd be something we weave in between all the other spells we have.

[GucciSan]

Increasing the frequency of damaging mechanics would basically remove 'downtime'. It doesn't need to hit harder, Just more frequently.

Currently, Tank busters tend to come up at around the same time as anti tankbuster cooldowns. AoEs tend to come out in intervals that pair with the cooldowns on our powerful AoE abilities...


...We currently don't ever use Cure/Benefic/Physik because we have effectively infinite MP thanks to a plethora of free healing Abilities to use over any GCD Healing. Forcing us to use GCDs on Healing would give value to the traits associated with them for MP management.
Although SCH would need something for Physik, Perhaps even something as simple as returning MP when when used on a target with Galvanize in effect.

Doing DPS as a Healer would be about skillfully utilizing your kit to force open windows where you can safely throw out a few GCDs on damage.
Right now there is literally zero skill involved in doing DPS as a Healer, and its nothing to do with the rotations. We simply memorize the script and press the right cooldown at the right moment when the boss politely asks for it.
Back in ARR, Cleric Stance and its proper use was what separated average Healers from excellent Healers. In a world where damage is more frequent, that distinction could be moved to how well a Healer manages their MP and utilizes their kit to enable their use of DPS.

Spending more time utilizing Healing GCDs would help break up the monotony of spamming Glare/Malefic/Broil for extended periods, as they'd be something we weave in between all the other spells we have.

I couldn’t agree more with this.

Leveling dungeon pulls are exciting because I get to utilize my kit to the fullest. Trials I could get away with not healing for absurd periods of time but not through any creative play on my part. There’s no real thought into minimizing healing because the bosses don’t really do much and are so predictable it’s more of a memory game. But leveling dungeons require you to know your kit so you can keep the tank up and squeeze out additional damage and it feels far more rewarding.

They really need to change up their encounter design; not only does it hold healer gameplay from becoming truly engaging, but it prevents them from implementing any new healers with unique mechanics. With the way fights are heavily scripted now, there’s only one type of healer that can work, which is why the current 3 feel so similar.

[AdamFyi]

I have to disagree because you run into the Assize problem where the healing aspect of Earthly Star no longer matters.

Interestingly, it’s already this way because there’s already a damage component. To get the most value out of Earthly Star, it’s much more efficient to drop it down off cd like Assize. Getting more casts of it is significantly more value than waiting for the perfect moment to use it. Of course, holding it for an extra few seconds to time it better with an Aoe is always a good idea, but generally keeping it on cooldown gives you better returns.

I disagree completely that that the game would need to be rebuilt to allow for an increase in mechanical frequency.

Genuinely curious why you think it wouldn’t be the case. As it is right now for anything below Ultimate, no matter how much you approach the resource limit, there’s always more efficient ways to plan cooldowns that enables healers to use as few GCD healing spells as possible. Ability healing is absurdly powerful, and simply nerfing it is just needlessly raising the skill floor which goes against what was intended by the developers according to that interview. How would you solve this issue?

They really need to change up their encounter design; not only does it hold healer gameplay from becoming truly engaging, but it prevents them from implementing any new healers with unique mechanics.

When the designers have to account for resources, it severely limits the design space they get to work with. We have a prime example in the latest Ultimate where both Healer’s MP bars are completely drained in about ~40 seconds because of the increased frequency of damage in one specific phase. That’s why after those ~40 seconds, the boss does absolutely nothing for like ~2 minutes to allow the Healers to recover. Shiva has something similar at the end of the encounter with Wyrm’s Lament + Akh Morn + Morn Afah. After that she does absolutely nothing but start prepping for the enrage.

There exists a limit to damage frequency to design around, but all that accomplishes is needlessly raising the skill floor and limiting encounter design for which the developers are adamantly against according to that interview. Accessibility is their main concern—not deterring players from playing the role.