6.0 Both Tank and Healers Need Major Focus on Bringing Back Job Identity

[Payotz]

Im sorry to say but SE doesn't take into consideration suggestions on the forums. They shown that with the DRK rework by ignoring every single input that was thrown around during SB and just pivoted towards "make it WAR".
PLD pivot more towards using the shield as a tool and more to do during requiscat.
WAR start pivoting away from IR, give the beast guage more to do with it, they are a beserker tank so pivot on that by giving them skills where they gain something from taking damage.
DRK should be given back Dark Arts as a skill and bring back scourge, give them another melee combo and rework Delirium or remove it, we don't need another tank with IR.
GNB, more to do with the blast charges and pivot towards the speed of the class staying at high gear, maybe give them a combo that increases their skill speed as its maintained.
TLDR: for all the tanks, more to do with our job guages that aren't just "FELL CLEAVE FOR ME!"

I'm not even sure if the ENG Community Team is actually providing this feedback to begin with.
If the messengers actually see these posts across the Tank/Healer and General Forums but they reassure the dev team that "Oh yeah everything's fine. Oh yeah, they said WHM needs to be a lot more easier to play", nothing's gonna change.
Who knows, they might just be cherry picking. It's not a 100%, but it sure seems like it.

[Duskane]

i don't care for Dark arts what i really want for Dark is those low blow procs and Blood weapon haste buff,
TBN and Blood spiller tried to replace the feeling of Low blow procs in stormblood but it did a terrible job at doing so.

[Awful]

Yeah I feel the same about job identity it's like they took everything from HW and SB, smashed it into bean paste and gave us nothing but gauges and spenders with all of the tanks/healer roles playing similar, I really hope in 6.0 we get something because tanking/healing this expansion feels so...meh? That's how I've felt since the start of ShB I feel like a DRK Warrior and WAR is a beserking DRK, and then the healers are spam 1 button, DoT, OGCD heal + Gauge spender done, only one that feels slightly different is AST since it doesn't have a gauge.

It's really sad that I've taken breaks and even thought about playing a DPS but I can't hang up the tank role when I want to but can't, it's frustrating as all hell.

[Absimiliard]

Can't say as I miss the crazy amounts of Dark Arts spam, but I would rather like DRK to have its own identity instead of just being a better version of WAR. You'd think they could come up with something resembling a unique mechanic that doesn't revolve around beating your Dark Arts bind like it owes you money.

[Shurrikhan]

Can't say as I miss the crazy amounts of Dark Arts spam...

I think you'd have trouble finding anyone who'd agree that Dark Arts spam was more iconic to DRK than being able to use it, diversely and sparingly, on several different actions with not a single of those actions gaining the same bonus from it as was the case in Heavensward.

[FallenWings]

Mfw the community hyperfixates on Delirium and immediately slam DRK as dArK wArRiOr despite their varying kits everywhere else but y'know, hurdur my memes.

Nevermind that paladin was a precursor to them both with having Requiscat into 5x Holy Spirit before WAR had it's brain scooped out in 4.2. But I guess Angry Paladin and Dark Paladin just doesn't roll off the tongue huh?


But yes change Delirium thanks. Give me infinite free edges/floods for the next 10 seconds instead.

[Kolsykol]

Thats why its important for you guys to stop "afking" in this game and move into other ones.
I started playing wow and cant wait for shadowlands, unsubbed from ffxiv for now since lvling healers is just a true pain and i dont feel like going into there. :P
Having more fun with wow so far, playing demon hunter feels like playing some arcade game, playing with freedom and mobility like i never would have in ffxiv.

I kinda lost all my hope for this japanese company, they just dont even listen to players outside of their own island, well.

Implying that Blizzard does lol.
Look I grew up playing Blizzard games, I've played them for as long as I can remember.
But Blizzard today isn't the same company anymore and they've become infamous for not listening to the playerbase.

Even with Shadowlands there's a lot of things to be worried about already.
The Demon Hunter is also arcadey because it's designed from the ground up to appeal to casual players and be simple ( which is also why DH players have a bad rep ), and FFXIV also uses a very different engine where our characters are more '' grounded ''.
WoW in general has a more arcadey feel to it, I personally actually prefer that altho I prefer the more in depth combat system of FFXIV. But a class like DH wouldn't work in FFXIV the engine simply doesn't work that way and wouldn't support it.
On the other hand, WoW's engine doesn't support the heavier feel of FFXIV either. It's just a preference thing.

I mean ofc on forums you mainly hear people complaining because people who take to the forums are generally the ones with problems and more prone to complain.
But every expansion of FFXIV has really been very well-received, you can't say that for WoW.

[Shurrikhan]

...

1. It might be better to judge less by forum echo chambers and more by the changes actually produced. In that regard, WoW has done more in response to player concerns lately than XIV has, and less in response to what they think their players are supposed to like.
2. Demon Hunter is the WoW version of SAM. Its toolkit is intuitive and attractive. It does not, however, lack for complexity at the highest levels of play.
3. XIV does not have any more "in depth" combat than WoW. The CD stacking, exact ability timings, raid buff multiplicity, and the like are all concerns available to WoW combat. They just have fights that are varied enough that such matters are secondary until the very highest levels of play, rather than -- due to fight predictability/simplicity -- being reached early on.

[Lyth]

It's an organisational culture issue.

FFXIV revolves around Yoshi-p's personality, down to the Steve Jobs-esque keynote speeches that we get around patch release. That's great for firing up player enthusiasm, but it's not a great system for feedback. The closest that ever get to a two-way conversation is during Q+A sessions that happen once every blue moon, but the bulk of that goes into answering fluff questions on housing and when the next Urianger glamour is going up on the cash shop rather than answering the harder hitting questions on jobs, gameplay, and why raid design seems so soulless this expansion. And it's easy to see why - the audience reacts much more favourably to "You get a glamour and you get a glamour, and everyone gets glamours!" than it does to openly acknowledge "We were wrong, healers want to be more than healbots, tanks are not afk-punching bags, and our elaborate fight choreographies with auto-positioning bosses are the equivalent of a rail shooter, but we want to be better, and we want to do better." Never forget 1.x? You didn't forget it (as you consistently remind us), but you certainly didn't learn from it.

Warcraft and Blizzard have changed, sure. But there's still this sense, out of pure historic precedent, that you can pop onto a forum, articulate an issue that bothers you, and every so often a blue post will pop up and tell you why they think you're wrong. And that's reassuring, because at the end of the day, regardless of what decisions are made, you get to be a part of that discourse. It's better to be disagreed with than to be ignored. And you also get the sense that the people running the show actually sense of vision about what they're doing, even if they make lots of dumb mistakes along the way. And it's a more sustainable strategy in the long term.

As far as tanks go, I think that movement and positioning are a much more intrinsic part of tanks in Warcraft because Charge, historically, was the iconic tank move. So the idea about designing a tank class around being really, really mobile was just a natural extension of the role. Meanwhile, in FFXIV, they were like "What, you want Spineshatter Dive or Shoulder Tackle on a tank? Er, okay?" and seemed somewhat baffled at the reaction to DRK's Plunge reveal in HW. If you want to keep a tank happy, give us mobs that we can freely move and position, and give us tons of mobility to do this. Not as knockback negation. For movement.

[Kolsykol]

1. It might be better to judge less by forum echo chambers and more by the changes actually produced. In that regard, WoW has done more in response to player concerns lately than XIV has, and less in response to what they think their players are supposed to like.
2. Demon Hunter is the WoW version of SAM. Its toolkit is intuitive and attractive. It does not, however, lack for complexity at the highest levels of play.
3. XIV does not have any more "in depth" combat than WoW. The CD stacking, exact ability timings, raid buff multiplicity, and the like are all concerns available to WoW combat. They just have fights that are varied enough that such matters are secondary until the very highest levels of play, rather than -- due to fight predictability/simplicity -- being reached early on.

Well I don't really agree about the gamplay depth, I think that even at a high level of play DH doesn't have all that much depth to it in comparison.
I am also talking about rotations too.

I'd hold off a little until Shadowlands is out too before I give Blizz credit for listening, I've heard a lot of big WoW Youtubers and Streamers give them a lot of credit as of late but also most recently they've been getting worried that Blizzard is falling into old habits again.
They've actually been doing interviews with some of these same Youtubers tho so there's that at least.
Blizzard trying to dictate what players '' should want '' is something they've been doing this whole expansion and only quite recently begun to give handouts instead of solving the issues.

I mean I want nothing more than to praise Blizzard, there's few things I'd want more than for Blizzard to return to form.
But in recent memory they've been really bad and I don't think that's just '' forum echo chambers '' and extends far beyond just WoW.
I mean maybe in some areas FFXIV has declined a bit, I play Monk it's not like I don't know what it's like to not be listened to...
At the same time tho a lot of other classes clearly have been listened to and have gotten huge reworks.
And the forum echo chamber argument applies to FFXIV too, I personally disagree with a lot of the complaints about tanks and healers especially.

I think that Blizzard have been worse much more consistently and for much longer, there's a reason why BFA in particular has such an awful rep and has been poorly received.
With that said tho Shadowlands does look better and like they've actually been listening to feedback, but again I'd wait until it's actually out before giving them credit.
And I think that a lot of what Blizzard have been doing is to just do whatever they want and what they want the players to want and then when players don't want it and yell really loud for a really long time they just pull out half-measures and don't really fix the problems.
In FFXIV it can take a long time, but I think that usually the problems tend to be fixed sooner or later. It can just be really slow.