Raiding is becoming less and less optional

[Pintsized]

The raids are casual content. I don’t see a problem with them being tied to MSQ.

Your reply shows why you don't see this as a problem, one that'll drive away a LOT of players who don't raid when they can't play the MSW without enduring 24-man raids as 5.3 will force them to do .. likely SE simply wants to see more MSW boosts to those of us who don't raid, hate raiding and will cease playing if there's no way round it.

[Pintsized]

Also, more on topic, as others have said it's only because they are going to make an upcoming story beat rely on a story beat from the sidequest that involved the raids. Gotta crawl before you can walk and all that.

There are of course millions of story-telling ways to achieve this without forcing people to do what many have chosen for 6+ years not to do .. I'll name one: THE ECHO!!!

I'm nit surprised most of the replies in this thread are dismissive because many people posting on this forum are pin the small minority of MMO players who like large-scale group content (as in all MMOs pretty muc) and treat any one who doesn't as 'filthy casuals' no doubt.

[Iscah]

Your reply shows why you don't see this as a problem, one that'll drive away a LOT of players who don't raid when they can't play the MSW without enduring 24-man raids as 5.3 will force them to do .. likely SE simply wants to see more MSW boosts to those of us who don't raid, hate raiding and will cease playing if there's no way round it.

"Enduring" 24-man raids? How long are you thinking they take?

The higher-level ones take longer of course, but Labyrinth takes 15 minutes (I literally just got it in roulette and checked the time after) and I'm pretty sure Syrcus Tower is less than that.

As for difficulty... I was playing as healer, and the only time I had to heal anyone was during the skeleton phase of the Bone Dragon fight. Either the other healer was keeping everyone topped up on their own, or there was just that little damage being dealt.

There are of course millions of story-telling ways to achieve this without forcing people to do what many have chosen for 6+ years not to do .. I'll name one: THE ECHO!!!

The Echo doesn't make you remember things that happened to you that you don't remember doing.

Also, if you do that, then it gets even messier if the player decides to go back and do that content.

The writers have an established system for dealing with optional content, and it is not and has never been the Echo, but making a variable script to reflect your progress. It made some parts of Shadowbringers more stilted than they could have been, and presumably they've decided it's too restrictive on the story they're telling to keep writing it that way.

I'm nit surprised most of the replies in this thread are dismissive because many people posting on this forum are pin the small minority of MMO players who like large-scale group content (as in all MMOs pretty muc) and treat any one who doesn't as 'filthy casuals' no doubt.

That's quite the assumption.

And I wouldn't have thought there would be such animosity towards large-scale group content like it's some kind of burden.

This is the only MMO I've played. I did the raids because I followed all the blue quest markers I saw, and played all the side stories as they became available to me. (I tried to do Binding Coil and Thornmarch EX via duty finder as well but... yeah. I can see why nobody would want to be forced into those.) The CT raids don't seem anything special to me besides that there are more people in them. It's just another battle instance and a story I quite liked even before it became something more important in the grand scheme of the plot.

So again. What makes this so different and objectionable? Why is it so much worse than a dungeon? The label on the instance doesn't define its difficulty level anywhere near as much as you seem to be making out.

[Vaer]

If it was actual non trivial content I could see the problem. Crystal Tower bosses and even Copied Factory can be completed with several dead players and even current ones can be as well so it isn't like they are asking you to complete something that is ridiculously difficult or that requires an insane amount of effort. Anyone can complete these one time to see the story then never do them again.

I really doubt there's some conspiracy here, something probably happens in 5.3 that would make less sense if you didn't do the crystal tower quest line as some of it relates to an existing character so they just put that in there for continuity sake.

[Stepjam]

Your reply shows why you don't see this as a problem, one that'll drive away a LOT of players who don't raid when they can't play the MSW without enduring 24-man raids as 5.3 will force them to do .. likely SE simply wants to see more MSW boosts to those of us who don't raid, hate raiding and will cease playing if there's no way round it.

Or maybe they just want you to play the content they created? I imagine they would be shocked if anyone paid for a boost to skip Crystal freakin Tower at this point. It's almost 100% faceroll due to everyone being overgeared.

Why do you act like the game wanting you to play it is punishment? Alliance Raids are designed to be beaten by casual players. Some of them may be challenging at a casual level when new, but they are all meant to be ultimately beatable blind.

I hear CT was challenging at launch, so if it were forced ilvl sink too, that would be one thing, but as they are currently you can basically sleepwalk through them

[Crushnight]

Crystal Tower raid dungeons are easier than any Shadowbringers dungeons.

If you can clear any Shadowbringers dungeon whether it be via trusts, duty finder, party finder, what have you you can clear CT easily.

This is why people view it as a non issue because by the time you need to have done it (5.3+ story) you are already a good enough player to handle these raid dungeons.

So as Iscah has been asking Why is there such an adversion to this raid dungeon series?, it is easier than whatever you do to cap your tomestones.

[Avidria]

There are of course millions of story-telling ways to achieve this without forcing people to do what many have chosen for 6+ years not to do .. I'll name one: THE ECHO!!!

I'm nit surprised most of the replies in this thread are dismissive because many people posting on this forum are pin the small minority of MMO players who like large-scale group content (as in all MMOs pretty muc) and treat any one who doesn't as 'filthy casuals' no doubt.

I'm a lazy filthy casual who spends most of my time in game messing around with friends, and have zero issues with doing 24 man raids
Heck I like them more than what I'd consider actual "raiding" in the sense I've done in the past ... I've done savage, I've done day 1 ex farming, I've done mythic raiding in wow and did raiding in SWTOR when it was new
That crap can get stressful. It's not for everyone. But requiring extremely outdated, heavily nerfed (directly or indirectly via outgearing) alliance raids for the MSQ isn't really asking a ton. It's not asking anyone to become a serious raider, and it's really not even asking anyone to be "good" at the game

Gonna be frank. Crystal Tower is a joke. It's a pushover mess of facerolly content that requires maybe a third of the people there to be mostly paying attention, and you're more likely to die because of someone being impatient and/or doing something stupid because they weren't paying attention than because any of the fights actually being challenging at all.
You can basically queue up and watch Netflix through most of them while rolling your hand across your keyboard occasionally, as long as some people aren't, barring MAYBE WoD which does still have a small handful of mechanics that can't just be outright ignored

If anything I'd rate required alliance raids on maybe the same level as those excessively long solo duties they've been making us do the last couple expansions (I freaking hate those). Annoying, maybe not fun if it's not what you're into, but it's a 15 minute annoyance to do and move on and never do again if you don't want to.

[yukiiyuki]

We got to the point where people are scared to go clear CT.
Maybe its time to add completion of MSQ with crafter job?

[Tizzy_Tormentor]

Your reply shows why you don't see this as a problem, one that'll drive away a LOT of players who don't raid when they can't play the MSW without enduring 24-man raids as 5.3 will force them to do .. likely SE simply wants to see more MSW boosts to those of us who don't raid, hate raiding and will cease playing if there's no way round it.

are you implying the CT raids will drive ANYONE away? you can literally drool all over your keyboard and still clear it in like 15 mins, I think you are putting too much emphasis on the "raid" aspect, they are extremely easy even for new players, the gear creep + massive nerfs have ensured it, hell even newer 24 mans aren't that difficult, harder than CT for sure, but still nothing special, even normal mode raids like Alexander, Omega and Eden are very simple for newer or casual players to jump into and have fun, the only raids that are of the difficulty you have "endure" is Savage and Ultimate. Besides, 24 mans tend to have really tight stories on em, not to mention the CT ares tied to the story of the latest expansion, going through it without doing them will make some moments fall flat imo.

Making it mandatory won't change anything, at this point, CT raids are glorified dungeons, World of Darkness requires a bit more situational awareness, but nothing you can't handle.

[MikkoAkure]

It appears that there's some new people who are worried about the word "raid". As stated in this thread, that terminology here in this game is not completely the same as the term used in the "classical MMO sense".

Alliance raids are not raids in the sense in that they're not ultra-difficult content that requires planning and flawless execution. For the most part, except for 1 boss fight in Orbonne Monastery, it is extremely difficult for 1 person to wipe the alliance and the existence of new players going in blind or players who aren't very good at the game is balanced out by the fact that there are 24 people here and your contribution or lack-thereof is negligible. Elements that are already present in the MSQ are much more difficult than alliance raids are. Chrysalis and Steps of Faith were both very difficult when they were first released and have since been nerfed or had ilvl increases make them trivial.

If your fun ends when having to play a dungeon with group mechanics with 23 other people, then MMOs might not be for you, and that's fine. In the end, this is an MMO and playing with other people is a part of the game. Also, this is still a video game and not a visual novel. It is expected that there are parts of the game that are going to be difficult that are tied to the story. All video games have difficult parts and while you shouldn't let the fact that others have an easier time of it discourage you, difficulty has always been a part of video games and you shouldn't except everything being handed to you on a silver platter just because it's tied to the story.

That all being said, SE has already realized the errors of its early days and Steps of Faith has been nerfed and the legitimate raids from Heavensward onward all have a "normal" mode that is much easier and more forgiving than the real raid. This allows people to see the story without being a "raider".

TL;DR: Alliance raids are not on the same level as savage raids so you shouldn't be scared of the word "raid".