What do you guys think is the cause of severe lack of Tank users?

[Kabooa]

If one is refusing to fix or compensate for bad play and thereby make the run more efficient just because they might get smeared a bit, too, if the tank especially poops the bed, isn't that exactly the excessive fear over etiquette that Sam was talking about?

Kinda. It's hardly perfect, and in dungeons specifically it doesn't usually work because, ironically, an individual player has significantly more potential to actually make a difference for one of those decisions.

In my experience, I lose more time trying to correct course than I do letting them do what they want, as there's less fall back, less talking, and less rage quitting.

[Juzjuzz]

Point is, don't be an asshole. Use words.

I agree with this. You want someone else to make an effort for you ? Then do it as well. Usually just talking things out is enough to make a "bad tank" try big pulls.
If you dont want to make an effort dont expect others to do it for free.

[LalafellDown]

This is total bs dude. Tanks pull first. Please stop this ridiculous argument and if you have your healer pulling for you than your a lazy tank or incompetent one. There are roles for a reason. Bad habits of overgeared dps and heals thinking tank doesn't matter until they do seriously this debate is nonsense.

Let me be very clear. Dps = damage this is your job Heals = keep everyone alive, remove status ailments when possible and rez when needed Tank = pulls mob holds agro and pos mob/boss for rest of group.

If you don't want to do your job unsync, trusts, GC Squad or get an fc/linkshell group to put up with this blatant disrespect/trolling. DO NOT PULL FOR TANK and if tanks are asking you to pull that's not real tank.

You’re not me nor are you that healer that provides that extra reach when my sprint wears off. That healer pulls for me when I can’t reach. I usually sprit through the whole dungeon. When I time it wrong the healer usually grabs the far away adds that would take be a bit to walk too. We’re just working together. The healer and I know what we both want and so they usually lend a hand and get a nice shinny COMM from me.I think you misunderstood what it means when healers pull.

On the other hand it adds extra spiciness to the gameplay. As a healer my life is more at risk and so I run to the tank with a challenge for myself. Sometimes the tank is a bit unaware and so I become the tank and healer. As a tank I try to save that healer. It’s really fun. Practice in chaos long enough and it becomes the new norm for the player.

You always hear how scared new players are of tanking. Leave the comfort zone and don’t be afraid to fail. Trying new things grows people. Don’t be afraid to fail when you try new things.

[Shurrikhan]

Kinda. It's hardly perfect, and in dungeons specifically it doesn't usually work because, ironically, an individual player has significantly more potential to actually make a difference for one of those decisions.

In my experience, I lose more time trying to correct course than I do letting them do what they want, as there's less fall back, less talking, and less rage quitting.

That's fair. Pragmatic balance serves best in most things, I guess.

[Liam_Harper]

I think most of us are in agreement that a good tank is one who can make large pulls and rotate cooldowns well. New or inexperienced players can be cautious of this, (sometimes it just feels like you take a lot of damage from one pack, but you don't realize the healer is barely being tested and can handle far more, sometimes you try a big pull and a bad healer lets you die and you get abuse) but they are capable of learning with proper guidance.
Generally however, "guidance" revolves around pulling for them or kicking them. This is the one role where you're punted in the deep end. A dps can report you for pushing advice on their dps rotation if they don't want it, or a healer if you insist they do more than spam medica and twiddle their thumbs, but pulling for the tank is absolutely within rules.

Where the community is divided is on whether tanks should be the ones to pull and set the pace, or whether dps/heals should pull for them. It's clear we're divided on it, some tanks do strongly feel the tank should pull. So that answers our question on why there are less tanks, because of a divide in community opinion on how tanking should work.

The question then is whether we're fine with that. Whether we want to set an unwritten rule where other players will pull for a tank who doesn't meet their desired pace and accept the reduction in tank numbers, or whether we want to be more accommodating and teach players if willing but set the rule where tanks pull. Or even leave feedback on getting a dungeon format where mobs will tear a non-tank to pieces in seconds, making the tank a more required role. Unfortunately it's a point I doubt we'll all agree on.

[SamRF]

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I just want to clarify further why I believe healer should be allowed to pull more if they want because I believe those tank's are basing their pull entitlement reasoning on selfish desires which is imo no defensible position in content that relies on teamwork.

How I see it, healer is the one that will have to deal with any problems or excessive damage. When the situation isn't clear, the tank will ask the HEALER if they can handle a bigger pull, not the other way around. A healer won't ask a tank if they can handle a bigger pull because the healer will know based on how much damage they are taking and how much they are capable of healing. What healer does usually is ask the tank to pull more, not ask them if they can handle it because tank doesn't get to decide that.

Responsibility to keep everyone alive in the end is the healer's, so they are imo the only role that may complain about the size of a pull, the others are constantly at mercy of Healer keeping them alive basically. This is why it makes completely no sense to me why you'd get upset at a healer if they decide to pull more. Considering this there's really no good reason why it would not be okay for a healer to see the situation and decide that prepulling for tank will lead to most efficiency. The only arguments I can see for tank to be against this is 1. they won't be as comfortable 2. it breaks their immersion 3 it hurts their ego.

All 3 of these reasons are entirely selfish and don't consider the group's best interest. Meanwhile the healer's decision to prepull increases efficiency and makes the instance progress faster, which is in the whole group's best interest and is the purpose of forming a group with the 3 distinctive roles in the first place.

If the healer prepulling did lead to a wipe, then the healer failed their job and they will take the responsibility for it, only then you may complain imo and perhaps kick them. Before that it's none of your business to determine what's okay in a matter that increases efficiency and doesn't result in deaths.

Just as a sidenote, I'm not speaking out of bias. Healer is most likely my least played role and I'm pretty sure Tank is my most played role for dungeons. I've never mained a Healer for long, almost always Tank or DPS. Right now maining Tank.

[Truen]

Do you think it's just lack in number of tank jobs or people simply wanting to do more damage? I've noticed that lot of sprouts jumping into FF14 lately, thanks to(?) Corona, decides to start out as a dps and was simply curious.

Same as with healers: boring, repetitive design. Homogonization in a game like FF14 is a sin and should be avoided...they're ruining job design.

[MPNZ]

Because you can totally just run dungeons half-asleep and get compliments for it...

[Juzjuzz]

If the healer prepulling did lead to a wipe, then the healer failed their job and they will take the responsibility for it, only then you may complain imo and perhaps kick them. Before that it's none of your business to determine what's okay in a matter that increases efficiency and doesn't result in deaths.

What you said is only true if you know and/or trust your healer. Some healers won't take responsibility and many players don't want that BS.

[Jimmymagic]

[QUOTE=Shurrikhan;5339627]This is "bs". There is only one duty, and that is to make the run/completion as quick as possible (when also accounting for time lost to deaths/wipes).

Tanks tank because it makes the run faster to do so than to take a 3rd DPS instead. Healers are there because 4 DPS cannot simply burn the boss before one or more die and a healer's dps, even while sufficient to keep everyone up, is greater than the dps that would be dealt if even a single dps were to earlier than half-way through the fight when averaged over the full fight. They are more efficient, taken sparingly, than DPS. If they were not, they would not be there.

That does not mean the duty for tanks and healers stops with just taking threat and mitigating or healing others, respectively. Everyone's purpose for being there is efficiency. Efficiency obliges we take a tank and healer. Efficiency then obliges that the tank pulls, damages, and mitigates and the healer heals and damages in whatever way speeds along the run the most.

We can fall short of being optimal -- it's just a casual dungeon, after all -- but it is no less the expectation for tanks and healers to, say, dps and to deal with the largest pull size reliably manageable given decent (not even optimal, but merely competent) play than for DPS to do so.

And given that life or death will ultimately come down to the healer, by mere fact that their resources are far less finite than the tank's, there is nothing wrong with them noting that the tank is playing under an irrational or uninformed fear and duly compensating. They should pull for a tank that is being needlessly timid, whether on forum-brand "principle", the "muh immersion" factor, or even just underestimating the healer's capabilities.[

if you believe you anything you just said is true please stop playing the game. you don't know what you are saying and your time is not more valuable then mine shut the hell up and do your job.

This is a contradiction to all the healers complaining about pally using clemency to do there job. The roles are vey simple. Your argument is NOT efficient when the healer is dead because they pulled not knowing what they are doing. IF any new tanks are on here do not tolerate people like this. Tanks pull> if healer pulls then its BS. I've been playing for awhile try pulling that nonsense on savage and see what happens.

"They should pull for a tank that is being needlessly timid, whether on forum-brand "principle", the "muh immersion" factor, or even just underestimating the healer's capabilities." DO NOT DO THIS