How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[BarretOblivion]

Frankly I would like more meaningful Don't-Die-Do-Kill trade offs. It doesn't need to be a harsh stance system, though I would like one represented on one job.

The choice should be do damage, or don't die. Not do damage and still be hit less than every other archetype because the tank role is more bloated with passive stats than a whale that's been in the sun too long.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the tank archetype dealing high damage, but there is something inherently wrong with wanting our current version of them to do so.

That would just mean OT would be always on Damage mode. Plus, we would just figure out like in Stormblood how to stay in DPS mode.

[Kabooa]

That would just mean OT would be always on Damage mode. Plus, we would just figure out like in Stormblood how to stay in DPS mode.

I think it's a worthwhile schemata to look into, and I have no issue at all with OT/MT's having two distinct roles, rotations, and supporting abilities, doubly so if we can fit them onto each singular tank.

The only reason that the DPS MT could exist is that the design allowed it to exist. You wouldn't "stay in DPS stance" if you end up in the floor two autos later.

That's why a good number of us are unhappy.

Hey man. I feel for that.

Hence why I said our "current version".

I think the worst I've said of the Heavensward stat situation is that it was a false choice, but conceptually, giving up 25% of your defense for +25% damage is fine. It's a stance swap where you can't change it during a fight.

That's the crux of the issue. Tanks are not weak right now. They're the most bloated they've ever been - It's just not in their beat stick. Relative corrective adjustments are fine. The Ranged are looking to receive one fairly soon, it looks like, so a corresponding one for the tanks and potentially healers would be appropriate.

The kind of sweeping boost that is being asked for requires trimming the fat by a proportional amount, or you're just going to get monkey pawed again.

[Hierro]

Tanks are not weak right now. They're the most bloated they've ever been - It's just not in their beat stick.

I would argue that they're NOT particularly strong in their mitigation either. Fact is, this entire expansion has been a relative joke in terms of mitigating damage. Before, tank swaps were near really common as tanks had to supercooldown and invuln several times in a fight, and swap to their co-tank to do the same and use their tools as well. the most swapping seen was in leviathan and that wasn't really all that intensive or required as much planning like O10S did. Now that fight required extensive CD planning to make sure you could cover all bases if you were unlucky enough to MT the entire latter half of the fight.

[Kabooa]

I would argue that they're NOT particularly strong in their mitigation either. Fact is, this entire expansion has been a relative joke in terms of mitigating damage. Before, tank swaps were near really common as tanks had to supercooldown and invuln several times in a fight, and swap to their co-tank to do the same and use their tools as well. the most swapping seen was in leviathan and that wasn't really all that intensive or required as much planning like O10S did. Now that fight required extensive CD planning to make sure you could cover all bases if you were unlucky enough to MT the entire latter half of the fight.

Doing a little testing.

Naked Tanks take less damage than fully armored casters and about the same as fully armored dragoons. Their innate trait bonus is -20% damage taken (I've seen varying accounts, so went for the quick and dirty check). Their armor at the current tier appears to put them around an additional 37% on top of that, plus whatever small amount tenacity adds. Comparatively, sigmascape armor appears to have been around 37%.

Skill consolidation and changes vary by jobs, but co-tank skills were markedly improved and expanded at large, so any losses in the other skills are generally covered here, likely with fights like O10s in mind when the boss determines whose face is getting beat.

Transitioning from StB -> ShB is a net gain in mitigation. Whatever amounts that were trimmed down between cooldowns is made up in excess via the tank trait and every tank having a short cast Co-tank ability.

Fight design not pushing that is a separate issue.

Edit: Excluding the paladin, who probably has a net neutral change with Sentinels retuning and Shield changes.

Edit 2: Wrong armor values for edenchoir gear

[Lyth]

Discussing how much each role can passively mitigate deliberately distracts from the issue. Does it matter?

Even in a situation in which losing enmity causes the boss to run around one-shotting everyone else, it just means that having a tank is mandatory, the same way that having a healer is mandatory. Ooh! You take less damage than everyone else! And you generate more aggros than anyone else! Isn't that exciting. Surely everyone will flock to the role now.

Likewise, shaming tanks for wanting to do more damage isn't any more subtle. Damage is where the raid value is at the moment. Which is why it's under discussion.

If you want to change that, you actually have to change fight design such that tank positioning and movement are essential to maximising raid dps. Fix one, fix the other, or better yet, fix both. But do neither and you're not providing much incentive to tank.

[Hierro]

Discussing how much each role can passively mitigate deliberately distracts from the issue. Does it matter?

Even in a situation in which losing enmity causes the boss to run around one-shotting everyone else, it just means that having a tank is mandatory, the same way that having a healer is mandatory. Ooh! You take less damage than everyone else! And you generate more aggros than anyone else! Isn't that exciting. Surely everyone will flock to the role now.

Likewise, shaming tanks for wanting to do more damage isn't any more subtle. Damage is where the raid value is at the moment. Which is why it's under discussion.

If you want to change that, you actually have to change fight design such that tank positioning and movement are essential to maximising raid dps. Fix one, fix the other, or better yet, fix both. But do neither and you're not providing much incentive to tank.

I don't care 'bout none o'dat. I just wanna be a rockstar hero tank again. Fight design, boss positioning, it's all means to an end: the spotlight. Is it self-centered and conceited? Sure, but it doesn't matter cause it feels good.

LET ME HAVE THAT AGAIN!

[Kabooa]

Discussing how much each role can passively mitigate deliberately distracts from the issue. Does it matter?

Yep.

It's almost like a role's overall strength has to take everything into account.

Butyouknow.

Lots of people trying to justify why or why not.

How about some ideas of how to do it?