Locking dyable artifact gear behind a extreme trial, good idea?

[Alleo]

@Ea: And this is already a problem. You think that Ex trials are still casual, but in my opinion (for example) they are not. Anything that needs a party with plans (and training or/and guide) is not casual anymore.

[EaMett]

@Ea: And this is already a problem. You think that Ex trials are still casual, but in my opinion (for example) they are not. Anything that needs a party with plans (and training or/and guide) is not casual anymore.

This was a bit my point. SE clearly think it is, hence this content. To be fair, Ex trials aren't really hardcore content either. It really threads that middle ground, some ex trials are barely harder than some other normal trials or raids. Think about how shin normal was on release vs something like emanation ex (where the only real mechanic was to vril when she went blue)
Casual content doesn't have to mean it's faceroll clear in a couple of attempts content. It just means it's lenient enough that you can get by with basic level skills and a bit of time.
I, however, do understand that some people here feel like 50-100 normal trial clears would've been a better option that 10 ex trial clears.

[Silica-chan]

This was a bit my point. SE clearly think it is, hence this content.

It sure is a bold move from them since I'm sure they are well aware of the uproar that happend on a few of their attempts to increase the challenge of some content. (Steps of Faith, Weeping City of Mhach, Final Steps of Faith, The Royal Menagerie, Orbonne Monastry come to mind here real quick)

Casual content doesn't have to mean it's faceroll clear in a couple of attempts content. It just means it's lenient enough that you can get by with basic level skills and a bit of time.

While I agree that the casual content shouldn't just be a glorfied "hit until dead with flashy effects that barely do anything", but a huge portion of the playerbase has proven mutliple times that even that can be/is still to much.
As for this specific fight, even though I don't care about the dyeable artifact gear, I went in there just to get a first hand experience. The beginning up to his first "special" attack wasn't to bad, we got there pretty consistently after a few tries. After that it's just mayhem with the back to back to back attacks with no aoe markers, which became my main issue fairly quickly. (seriosuly SE, what were you thinking with this?)

I, however, do understand that some people here feel like 50-100 normal trial clears would've been a better option that 10 ex trial clears.

That would have been a fair compromise for me and really is my main issue/complaint on this matter. Make me run something 30-50 times for an upgrade "token" on normal and give the ex mode one "token" per kill. That way I would atleast have a second option. An extremely inefficient one, sure, but atleast I'd be "guaranteed" to get there at some point.

[Alleo]

This was a bit my point. SE clearly think it is, hence this content.

We dont know what SE thinks. It could also be that they have created that trial, had no time to create new gear or a mount for it and just thought: Well lets put artifact gear as dyeable behind it..the devs are not always making good choices. If they had wanted this to be the casual part why not give them an increase in ilvl?

You don't *need* a guide, nor do you need a preformed party. You just need time and a good attitude. You don't even need to be fantastic at your class most of the time. Observe what happens and either react to it or talk over what happened with your party members if you wipe/die. That's really all it takes to learn a fight. By level 80 you should have a grasp of the mechanics that fights throw at you. EX fights usually introduce maybe 1-2 things you've never seen before.

Basically, make/round up some friends who have good attitudes and go at it. Or join a learning party in PF, whatever, I'm not your mother. But acting like this is some Herculean task for the majority of players is silly. They just need to step up to the plate and give it a shot.

And if you dont have that round of friends? Go into a learning party and how often do they want you to have watched a guide? If most people in this game were good at it then normal fights would not need all the nerfs..I remember how nearly impossible steps of faith was because a lot of people had problems following instructions. I dont want to count the time with randoms in normal dungeons where they did not even know how to aoe..and the countless of wipes in normal trials because people at lvl 80 still dont understand easy mechanics like stacking. There is a reason why one of the biggest threads on this forum is about stories from the Duty finder.

And if its so easy and most can do it then why do we even have the relic weapon? Why give the casual players are more easy but grindy way to get a good weapon. Let just throw a few in extreme trials and since most can do it lets just do that right?

[IttyBitty]

And if you dont have that round of friends?

Well, if you don't have a group of friends, you...make some? It's a social game? Is your friends list empty or something?

Go into a learning party and how often do they want you to have watched a guide?

Yes? You're aware that you are capable of creating your own parties, right? With your own conditions for how you want to go about completing it? There are plenty out there who are happy to learn blind. I've learnt pretty much every single fight I've done in the game blind, be it extreme trials or savage raids.

If most people in this game were good at it then normal fights would not need all the nerfs..

Actual nerfs when content is fresh are incredibly rare. Go look up when nerfs usually happen, especially the addition of the Echo buff. They're nearly always when content is long out of favour so that new players have an easier time getting through it (and so that old players who have done it countless times can get it done faster, so they don't bail instantly).

I remember how nearly impossible steps of faith was because a lot of people had problems following instructions. I dont want to count the time with randoms in normal dungeons where they did not even know how to aoe..and the countless of wipes in normal trials because people at lvl 80 still dont understand easy mechanics like stacking. There is a reason why one of the biggest threads on this forum is about stories from the Duty finder.

Yeah, and? Party finder isn't duty finder. You can curate your group to your heart's content. Become the "toxic elitist" within and kick people who aren't performing to your own specific standards as is your wont to do, especially given how little faith you have in your fellow players.

[Eldevern]

Well, if you don't have a group of friends, you...make some? It's a social game? Is your friends list empty or something?

You are a player on a NA server, right? Then I have a little thing to explain : a lot but really a lot of european players are not at all that comfortable with english language. Then making friend need to consider this factor american or english fluent folks don't have.

French players will play with french people, german with german, russian with russian etc. for the majority of them. It makes things more complicated for Ex and need-static contents. The second factor to consider is european, what american people don't know or don't pay attention on it are less motivated by "competitive contents". You can't change cultural aspects by just some kind of sarcasm. It is a matter of interest, of priority. Making friends is a thing, to find some for Ex Savage and so is different.

The language wall, NA players totally ignore this matter they don't have to take in consideration.

[Duskane]

You are a player on a NA server, right? Then I have a little thing to explain : a lot but really a lot of european players are not at all that comfortable with english language. Then making friend need to consider this factor american or english fluent folks don't have.

French players will play with french people, german with german, russian with russian etc. for the majority of them. It makes things more complicated for Ex and need-static contents. The second factor to consider is european, what american people don't know or don't pay attention on it are less motivated by "competitive contents". You can't change cultural aspects by just some kind of sarcasm. It is a matter of interest, of priority. Making friends is a thing, to find some for Ex Savage and so is different.

The language wall, NA players totally ignore this matter they don't have to take in consideration.

i've always been on a DC with a language barrier somewhere since i was in Chaos and went to Elemental so i had to deal with multiple different languages with my time in Chaos i still got multiple savage fights and Extreme fights down during pugs despite language barrier
I was also in a very bad time zone for EU data center since im Australian (hence why i finally decided to move couple months ago) and as i said before i still got Multiple extreme and savage fights down in pugs and most of them were week 1/day 1-3 clears
cant use the excuse "its different over here" or "you just dont get it".

Finding a good group can be hard but its not impossible people just give up too quickly.

[thegreatonemal]

You are a player on a NA server, right? Then I have a little thing to explain : a lot but really a lot of european players are not at all that comfortable with english language. Then making friend need to consider this factor american or english fluent folks don't have.

French players will play with french people, german with german, russian with russian etc. for the majority of them. It makes things more complicated for Ex and need-static contents. The second factor to consider is european, what american people don't know or don't pay attention on it are less motivated by "competitive contents". You can't change cultural aspects by just some kind of sarcasm. It is a matter of interest, of priority. Making friends is a thing, to find some for Ex Savage and so is different.

The language wall, NA players totally ignore this matter they don't have to take in consideration.

Bull, they are western cultures and all of them have that competitive its all about me mentality. the bosses are highly scripted you hardly need to say anything at all to get everything in order and do content.

[Eldevern]

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I suppose we all have different experience. In mine PF is far to be fantastic. Most all players I was friend with since ARR are gone, for a part because of the miserable behavior of some random PUG in PF (and the feeling to lose their time, happening the IRL matters end to take too much time to lead them to find motivation to wait it fills and run for nothing).

The only rare who are still here are only because they have time and have a few irl friends who play the game. But not everyone have IRL friends who play MMOs.

And for sure, to be part of western culture doesn't mean we have the same state of mind. As European, I do can say we don't have the same temperament. Cultures are pretty strongly related to the language, we have more than twenty languages in Europe and all subtile but real differences in mentality, related to the "language logic of thinking and meaning".

[IttyBitty]

@Ea: And this is already a problem. You think that Ex trials are still casual, but in my opinion (for example) they are not. Anything that needs a party with plans (and training or/and guide) is not casual anymore.

You don't *need* a guide, nor do you need a preformed party. You just need time and a good attitude. You don't even need to be fantastic at your class most of the time. Observe what happens and either react to it or talk over what happened with your party members if you wipe/die. That's really all it takes to learn a fight. By level 80 you should have a grasp of the mechanics that fights throw at you. EX fights usually introduce maybe 1-2 things you've never seen before.

Basically, make/round up some friends who have good attitudes and go at it. Or join a learning party in PF, whatever, I'm not your mother. But acting like this is some Herculean task for the majority of players is silly. They just need to step up to the plate and give it a shot.

On the other hand, when some players asked to delay savage of 1~2 weeks at most, the hardcore raiders said they wanted the content right away, just because (see this thread for instance). I don't know your stance on this other topic, but whatever it is you have to realize that when the hardcore part of the community says they can't wait another week to start savage, telling the casuals that they should wait two years to get dyeable gear is quite the absurdity.

Also I need to say something about this. I actually bothered to go through that thread and check out who was saying what. The players pushing for it the hardest were raiders. Out of all the naysayers, the number of people against it with any clears in any savage fight of this tier can be counted on a single hand. The majority of the others don't even touch Savage, so I have no idea where the hell you are getting the idea that the "hardcore" players were against it.