Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[Kabooa]

It pretty much is, the issue is you're thinking of it in terms of what you get, instead of the amount of money those things cost. There are dozens of places where $10 gets you a burger and soda, it's probably the most common fast food meal out there. But there are also places where $10 gets you just a burger. Maybe it's an 'artisanal' burger served with a knife and fork with salt shavings from the Himalayas.

Now, you may you think it's a ripoff, but the fact is that burger exists and it has a market. Maybe it's quants working in the financial district with more money than sense, just not your market.

TFW Machinist is just a hipster burger.

[Eliadil]

A situation where a job in the same role deals much more damage than the others should be avoided at all costs, as that would simply translate to a clear meta choice for that role.

I think that, while being a reasonable opinion on paper, is fundamentally flawed when you see how Stormblood "meta" went. Selfish jobs were ignored/kicked out of party because they "didn't bring enough to the table". While I do agree that there shouldn't be that much of an advance in rdps for every job, the general playerbase sadly don't think like that. And a Black Mage that deals just the same amount of rdps as a Summoner will just get ignored in pf, because "summoner does the same thing but it's easier, and it has rez".
We've seen how the "synergy" meta went, when everybody had raid buffs and the selfish weren't that much ahead. Then suddenly the "selfish" jobs become much less interesting to have in your pf because every other job could do the same AND buff others.

On the opposite now, in Shadowbringers we've reached a point where in pf it doesn't matter what class you play. As long as there isn't a trio of the same role (triple melee/caster/ranged) everybody is happy and content gets cleared just fine (well depends the skill of your pf. It's pugs after all).


Still I do agree that maybe summoner is a bit high when compared to red mage right now, and that bard should probably get something better, at least to put it on par with dancer in terms of rdps. But I do not think that nerfing the damage of selfish jobs will do any good to the way the meta is seen by players. Or then you'd have to change the playstyle of samurai and black mage. Because seeing how difficult it is to get really high with those two jobs (especially the current sam design lol), lowering their output to bring them on par with the other jobs would just mean that bad/decent BLM or SAM will suffer even more from this nerf, as there is currently quite a gap between the highest and lower percentiles.

[Lastelli]

I think that, while being a reasonable opinion on paper, is fundamentally flawed when you see how Stormblood "meta" went. Selfish jobs were ignored/kicked out of party because they "didn't bring enough to the table". While I do agree that there shouldn't be that much of an advance in rdps for every job, the general playerbase sadly don't think like that. And a Black Mage that deals just the same amount of rdps as a Summoner will just get ignored in pf, because "summoner does the same thing but it's easier, and it has rez".

Selfish jobs were never ignored, they just weren't meta. I swear people on this forum really overdramatize what happens in the real game. The reason they were nowhere to be seen in the top groups on fflogs is just because balance was much worse than it is now, with a stupidly high synergy between 4 jobs in particular (DRG, BRD, NIN and SCH) and selfish jobs dealing lower rdps than more utility oriented jobs, at least in the first half of the expansion. There were also other problems, like WHM being strictly inferior to AST, NIN being too good because of both tricks and shadewalker (tanks really wanted it, especially if there was a WHM in the party), BLM being less mobile than it is now and others I'm probably missing right now.

If you are talking about pure damage, then yes, you have a point. But when you think of all the utility SMN brings with it, either they shouldn't have that utility or they shouldn't do as much damage. At least that's what the design philosophy that Yoshi-P says the Dev team has been following since Stormblood battle rework.

SMN right now is definitely overtuned for what it brings to the table, compared to BLM. It's like saying a burger and a soda is the same as just a burger.

The only utility SMN brings that BLM doesn't is a rez once in a while that can be effectively used only if swiftcast is available and that is relevant only during prog and only if healers can't do it. This is very different from the (much superior) chain rez available to RDM that somewhat justifies a slightly lower dps output. All the rest of the utility is just damage, either direct or via dps buffs (devotion).
Phoenix regen is so laughably weak that it cannot even be considered utility, it's there just for flavor.

[Cosaint]

Selfish jobs were never ignored, they just weren't meta. I swear people on this forum really overdramatize what happens in the real game. The reason they were nowhere to be seen in the top groups on fflogs is just because balance was much worse than it is now, with a stupidly high synergy between 4 jobs in particular (DRG, BRD, NIN and SCH) and selfish jobs dealing lower rdps than more utility oriented jobs, at least in the first half of the expansion. There were also other problems, like WHM being strictly inferior to AST, NIN being too good because of both tricks and shadewalker (tanks really wanted it, especially if there was a WHM in the party), BLM being less mobile than it is now and others I'm probably missing right now.



The only utility SMN brings that BLM doesn't is a rez once in a while that can be effectively used only if swiftcast is available and that is relevant only during prog and only if healers can't do it. This is very different from the (much superior) chain rez available to RDM that somewhat justifies a slightly lower dps output. All the rest of the utility is just damage, either direct or via dps buffs (devotion).
Phoenix regen is so laughably weak that it cannot even be considered utility, it's there just for flavor.

And Black Mages brings... a whole lot of nothing. Even in Stormblood BLM had more utility than now in the form of Mana Shift. That's gone now.
This whole discussion is completely disingenuous, downplaying SMN's utility to justify it being neck to neck with BLM.
The day they give BLM a ress we can call this even, until then the only balanced nature will be BLM>SMN>RDM

[dinnertime]

And Black Mages brings... a whole lot of nothing. Even in Stormblood BLM had more utility than now in the form of Mana Shift. That's gone now.
This whole discussion is completely disingenuous, downplaying SMN's utility to justify it being neck to neck with BLM.
The day they give BLM a ress we can call this even, until then the only balanced nature will be BLM>SMN>RDM

They are not exactly wrong about "downplaying" Summoner's utility. All they have to really utilize is Devotion, meanwhile you can't exactly do the same with Resurrection and Everlasting Flight in every fight.
Still, I agree that Summoner should at least be right below Black Mage, but some of you are overdramaticizing Summoner being overpowered. The gaps between the casters right now isn't a lot, which is a good thing.

[Ramura_Sono]

They are not exactly wrong about "downplaying" Summoner's utility. All they have to really utilize is Devotion, meanwhile you can't exactly do the same with Resurrection and Everlasting Flight in every fight.
Still, I agree that Summoner should at least be right below Black Mage, but some of you are overdramaticizing Summoner being overpowered. The gaps between the casters right now isn't a lot, which is a good thing.

The issue is Everlasting Flight and Res are still utility that Summoner seemingly isn't paying for. If they're truly so ineffectual that SMN shouldn't be taxed for them then just cut them from summoner entirely. Then no one will have any issue with summoner being so close to BLM.

[dinnertime]

The issue is Everlasting Flight and Res are still utility that Summoner seemingly isn't paying for. If they're truly so ineffectual that SMN shouldn't be taxed for them then just cut them from summoner entirely. Then no one will have any issue with summoner being so close to BLM.

Everlasting Flight is more than ineffectual when healers currently have a myriad of ways to heal that it's ridiculous. Healers won't need your help with healing. It's quite strong, but you won't be using it when you need it. People should ignore that it's even part of Summoner's utility just like the joke that is Physick.
Resurrection as usual will always be a hot topic. Would they remove it though, or give it to Black Mage? I highly doubt it. The only reasonable option here is to tune down Summoner.

But again, people are overdramaticizing Summoner being overpowered.

[Myon88]

If they're truly so ineffectual that SMN shouldn't be taxed for them then just cut them from summoner entirely.

Laughs in physick

[RylaBee]

And Black Mages brings... a whole lot of nothing.

Wrong. BLM has 2 teleport abilities and Manaward to live past some mistakes.

SMN is the true glass cannon of the entire game, you have no jump in/out abilities and no shields or heals.
Pugging prog a lot, I can tell you, how it is almost exclusively me to end on the floor when healers couldnt top-off party before AoE for any reason.
Healer will ou-shit heal or shield themeselves, RDM will vercure, BLM will manaward and non-cloth classes have more health and second wind.

SMN has.. physics.

[Nemekh]

The issue is Everlasting Flight and Res are still utility that Summoner seemingly isn't paying for. If they're truly so ineffectual that SMN shouldn't be taxed for them then just cut them from summoner entirely. Then no one will have any issue with summoner being so close to BLM.

What? If you think we aren't paying for Everlasting Flight let me introduce you to all the Firebird Trance summon methods we have listed to dance around the fact that it's causing Phoenix to never react to an immediate Fountain of Fire. Not to mention that EF is a happenstance benefit where we do not adjust its place for the healing benefit, if our Trances misalign so that FBT isn't after raid wides then it ends up as majority overheal. Healers can incorporate it into their end methods that may at best save a small number of GCDs, but it's not something that should be a punishment to SMN (as it technically already is mechanically). Raise is the only valid point that has been rehashed repeatedly. Please don't misassign costs without even having familiarity with the job.

Wrong. BLM has 2 teleport abilities and Manaward to live past some mistakes.

SMN is the true glass cannon of the entire game, you have no jump in/out abilities and no shields or heals.
Pugging prog a lot, I can tell you, how it is almost exclusively me to end on the floor when healers couldnt top-off party before AoE for any reason.
Healer will ou-shit heal or shield themeselves, RDM will vercure, BLM will manaward and non-cloth classes have more health and second wind.

SMN has.. physics.

This isn't fully true anymore. We have Earthen Armor (a more frequent, more costly Manaward!) which if you're progging in an environment that isn't safe you either prog with titan out, or you hold an EA1, swap to titan and use the shield as necessary, then swap back.

What is true is that we're the only caster without emergency movement measures such as AM/BTL/CAC/Displacement (which all have their own contextual constraints) meaning we do have to be especially mindful for our positioning before, during and after mechanics and it can be argued that our measures for movement sustain with instant GCDs helps offset that, but then, when we were a hardcast GCD hungry fiend back in HW it was very much still the case.