Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[Kabooa]

Incorrect,

If SMN had "high firepower" it would be ruling over all of those instances I already linked on the first page... yet it is NOT doing so.
In fact in some cases its towards the bottom of the list. That can only mean one thing.

It does not have "high firepower"... its got moderate firepower. If it had high firepower in ALL situations you might be correct, but its only got "high firepower" in ONE specific type of combat. That specific type of combat is combat that requires High Mobility where the other jobs cannot utilize theirs to their potential.

Ramuh is not high mobility. It's the closest we have to a caster dummy fight, where the 'everyone else's' dummy fight is E7. All of Ramuh's movement is easily covered by non-RNG movement options.

[Myon88]

Why, exactly, would you consider week 1 balance to be more important than week X later? While it's true that class balance would matter more for week 1 clears as that's when fights are at their hardest, it's also worth noting that you're leaving out the part where this phase is the only part of the raid tier where Summoners are challenged - conveniently leaving out the other 95% of the raid tier where everybody else might not have as many answers to as Summoners do.

Really? What happened to balancing for jobs when played properly, at the top level of play? People say that all the time when someone comes in here to say the ranged are weak, or blm is hard to play (press backspace and see for yourself). Don't get all bothered just because someone is in a position to use that logic against you.

In the first place, why even complain about perceived imbalance if you're going to abandon that principle anyway, just play whatever you want and enjoy the game then - sound familiar? If I were a meaner person, I'd point out that if you're going to design for the week 5 demographic, why even care about 0.5% dps differences anyway? You're just going to overpower the fight with a month's worth of gear.

The fact that SE tunes enrages so tightly in week 1 should tell you everything they do is curated for that ballpark. And it is precisely for that reason that demographic is the one with the largest stake in the outcome of that process.

You praise the power of Verraise, and never once mention that the Summoner's version covers almost all the scenarios Verraise does at a fraction of the cost compared to every other job's access to it, ignoring that you'll quickly downplay any advantage the raise provides if it threatens to result in a damage loss.

Sorry, but given that I have progged as both red mage and summoner, I don't share that view at all. That is precisely why experience is important, I have seen it firsthand. Can you really claim that swiftcast covers 'almost all the scenarios' verraise would, if you've never done serious progression on both jobs yourself? If this is just conjecture, then what you have is empty rhetoric with nothing backing it up.

It's not okay to be biased, because even if you were you should have the integrity to see it and correct yourself. What some of you do have is lower standards due to a difference of perspective (although when it comes to theoretical dps, you are as discerning as any speedrunner, how curious). And that's what's fine, because the game has to be accessible to all. But now you know why your viewpoints are both irreconcilable and unconvincing.

[ReiMakoto]

Incorrect,

If SMN had "high firepower" it would be ruling over all of those instances I already linked on the first page... yet it is NOT doing so.
In fact in some cases its towards the bottom of the list. That can only mean one thing.

It does not have "high firepower"... its got moderate firepower. If it had high firepower in ALL situations you might be correct, but its only got "high firepower" in ONE specific type of combat. That specific type of combat is combat that requires High Mobility where the other jobs cannot utilize theirs to their potential.

I have already explained to you earlier which I think you aggreed with me with that if people actually bothered to compete for rank in casual content then smn would dominate there, its just they dont, most logs go up for that content by accident.

Also, I don't know how many times this needs to be explained to you, the mobility point you're making doesn't make any sense!, SAM and the other Melees are not missing any attacks or positionals due to mobility in most savage fights at the high end, hell neither is black mage, so if you're not missing anything, then you're on equal footing with SMN then its just a dps race... which SMN is winning. Do you understand or do I need to explain this on an even more basic level? In savage at high percentiles ALL jobs get near 100% uptime/ DON'T miss anything based off of mobility, so it is just a DPS race at that point, which smn is winning even in fights where it can't play to its strengths such as multidotting. Do you understand?

[SaitoHikari]

Really? What happened to balancing for jobs when played properly, at the top level of play? People say that all the time when someone comes in here to say the ranged are weak, or blm is hard to play (press backspace and see for yourself). Don't get all bothered just because someone is in a position to use that logic against you.

In the first place, why even complain about perceived imbalance if you're going to abandon that principle anyway, just play whatever you want and enjoy the game then - sound familiar? If I were a meaner person, I'd point out that if you're going to design for the week 5 demographic, why even care about 0.5% dps differences anyway? You're just going to overpower the fight with a month's worth of gear.

The fact that SE tunes enrages so tightly in week 1 should tell you everything they do is curated for that ballpark. And it is precisely for that reason that demographic is the one with the largest stake in the outcome of that process.

Alright, fine, I'll concede that. But again, what about the other 95% of the raid tier, which the data shows Summoner having a leg up on the majority of other classes? Is everything else not worth taking into consideration too, just because they're not a mechanic in the last fight of the raid tier?

Again, there has to be a reason you're hyper focusing your argument on that one specific mechanic. Let's say that mechanic didn't exist... Could you find something else in this raid tier that impacts Summoner negatively compared to the other two casters?

Really, with the way you're behaving, it's like you're against any adjustments for any of the casters in any direction, or we're suggesting something drastic, when really all most people in this thread are doing are pointing out class design vs fight design. I for one just think that either one of two things need to happen, favoring the former over the latter: Take Raise away from Summoner to strengthen Red Mage's position as the hybrid support caster (simultaneously making Black Mage VS Summoner a difference in play style instead of raw firepower over firepower AND support), or buff Black Mage/nerf Summoner slightly to put some distance between both classes.

The only reason your so called caster golden age is happening is because the ranged are in a bad spot, not because the casters are balanced. Once the ranged are brought up, what happens then?

[Silverquick]

I have already explained to you earlier which I think you aggreed with me with that if people actually bothered to compete for rank in casual content then smn would dominate there, its just they dont, most logs go up for that content by accident.

No... I disagreed with you.

I told you specifically to look at the individual rankings for those dungeons and you will see that the numbers put out by those individuals means they were obviously geared up and if you look closer you'll notice they were in optimized parties in most cases (ie, with a Dancer co partner)

[Kabooa]

Sorry, but given that I have progged as both red mage and summoner, I don't share that view at all. That is precisely why experience is important, I have seen it firsthand. Can you really claim that swiftcast covers 'almost all the' scenarios' verraise would, if you've never done serious progression on both jobs yourself? If this is just conjecture, then what if you have is empty rhetoric with nothing backing it up.

It's not okay to be biased, because even if you were you should have the integrity to see it and correct yourself. What some of you do have is lower standards due to a difference of perspective (although when it comes to theoretical dps, you are as discerning as any speedrunner, how curious). And that's fine you know, because the game has to be accessible to all. But now you know why your viewpoints are both irreconcilable and unconvincing.

I did the hardcore thing a long time ago, and old habits break pretty hard. I did try a speed run in Deltascape with a random group, but frankly, the amount of control over everything wasn't as fun and I prefer the chaos of clearing parties.

I doubt you need to do every single multiplication problem in existence to understand how to do 31,273 x 21,028 by hand. It isn't difficult to understand the position of Summoner's Raise to Red Mage's Verraise, nor to imagine the situations where one is superior to the other, and where they overlap, nor the cost of one to the other, nor the cost / gain to the party that either have by virtue of simply being present.

[ReiMakoto]

No... I disagreed with you.

I told you specifically to look at the individual rankings for those dungeons and you will see that the numbers put out by those individuals means they were obviously geared up and if you look closer you'll notice they were in optimized parties in most cases (ie, with a Dancer co partner)

Okay so just don't address the rest of my points then. Also okay you're being a massive cherry picker then? Theres hardly any logs up for dungeons so disregarding because "obviously geared up" is just wrong

[Myon88]

Is everything else not worth taking into consideration too, just because they're not a mechanic in the last fight of the raid tier?

Again, there has to be a reason you're hyper focusing your argument on that one specific mechanic. Let's say that mechanic didn't exist... Could you find something else in this raid tier that impacts Summoner negatively compared to the other two casters

The only reason I'm bringing it up is because someone tried to tell me that multidotting is 'op', and with this I have shown that it is not all sunshine and rainbows. Just as you can design phases where jobs like smn and bard flourish, so can you design phases that are hostile to them. These jobs profit in e7s, and lose in e8s, I think that's pretty fair.

Really, with the way you're behaving, it's like you're against any adjustments for any of the casters in any direction.

Take Raise away from Summoner to strengthen Red Mage's position as the hybrid support caster (simultaneously making Black Mage VS Summoner a difference in play style instead of raw firepower over firepower AND support), or buff Black Mage/nerf Summoner slightly to put some distance between both classes.

As I've said already, the casters are balanced right now, no further adjustments are needed. The caveat is that I care about balance from a 99th percentile perspective. Summoner should not be punished because some people are bad at playing blm and feel that their job needs an extra handicap. Not everyone will be able to relate to that, but if you agree with the principle that balance should be concerned with correct play, then you'll see that this is a meritocracy, not a democracy.

I am also opposed to removing raise for simple reason that you will water down the diversity of the caster role just like what has happened to the ranged jobs. Right now I can play any of the three casters and get three completely different experiences, I sadly cannot say the same for the ranged. There's no need to fix what isn't broken (and is in fact working pretty well). If you are a black mage or red mage worth your salt, you should have absolutely no issue finding a group. Some people complain that they get 'locked out' as a blm, or made fun of as a rdm, neither of those stereotypes are true if you're a good player. Neither should summoner be punished for your thin skin, or the uninformed opinions of party finder randos.

I did the hardcore thing a long time ago

So you don't then. It's one thing to extrapolate that by knowing how to multiply, you can solve any kind of multiplication problem in existence. It's another thing to say confidently that you'd be able to do it while skydiving, for instance. Or to expound on why a calculator or an abacus would be more or less suited for the task while doing so. There is a qualitative difference between the two raises that is best experienced in person.

You may have confidence in your conjecture, but I'm sure you can see that I have no reason to believe you when my own experience in the present says otherwise.

[Kabooa]

So you don't then. It's one thing to extrapolate that by knowing how to multiply, you can solve any kind of multiplication problem in existence. It's another thing to say confidently that you'd be able to do it while skydiving, for instance. Or to expound on why a calculator or an abacus would be more or less suited for the task while doing so. There is a qualitative difference between the two raises that is best experienced in person.

You may have confidence in your conjecture, but I'm sure you can see that I have no reason to believe you when my own experience in the present says otherwise.

Just like personal anecdotes don't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things.

[SaitoHikari]

Quoting is problematic on mobile.

Anyway Myon, you’re now basically arguing that Raise is a core part of Summoner identity. Why do you really think that? One of the biggest complaints this expansion is that everyone got watered down precisely because everyone was given shared tools. Why is Summoner Raise suddenly a core facet of caster identity that is exempt from this, when Summoner possessing Raise like Red Mage does while having nearly as much damage as a selfish Black Mage is robbing the other two casters of THEIR identity?

This is really what the arguments about caster balancing boils down to today.

And what’s this about balancing around a 99th percentile perspective when the results are similar across the board? Personal performance has little relevance in a balancing argument. I parsed 95% last tier and got 97 in UwU. Does that mean Bard is fine today? Data should not be abused as such.