Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[Miminming]

Your money comment is irrevelvant, the people who don't do savage don't need to care about class balance it terms of dps numbers because outside of savage that stuff does not matter in the slightest

false, i know people who dont do savage nor ultimate but actually complainng and care about their damage, theres some people who complaining in this forum dont have a trace of doing savage nor ultimate, casual player also complaining againt time they need to finish a dungeon because of their job lower dps etc etc, so sorry, its not only high tier players matter.

if you are talking the NEED to care about damage then theres no need to... why? all class can clear them even in week 1...

[NaiXizi]

They are already,

Check out the actual top DPS numbers put out by SMNs in End Game dungeons. Those are wayyyy higher than any normal player puts out. So they obviously are being done by some seriously geared up players.

Oh, hello, thank you for viewing my article. My article is somewhat subjective, and some inadequacies please forgive me.
But I'm not sure, please check the following.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=69
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=70
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=71
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=72
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=DPS&boss=1050

You know, SMN has the characteristics of higher resurrection and mobility, why he will compete with BLM and SAM without resurrection and mobility conditions.

[Akiudo]

Look closely, that Dungeon Damage is segmented specifically to class damage.

I specifically segmented it by damage not speed.

As for the rest... no very few people actually play savage or ultimates for that matter. Guess what the majority of the people in this game play?

Yeah normal dungeon raids. Heck its even hard to get them to play Alliance raids, let alone a Savage raid. BUT at least you CAN get them to play Alliance Raids.

You are tunnel visioned into Savage.

what is a "normal dungeon raid" ? you mean normal mode raids ? in that case again, smn is top in 3 out 4 of the current fights, even in normal mode. and btw, accusing others of cherry picking their data by only looking at the stuff that explicitly works towards smn strengths, yet linking e2 data, a fight that comes very close to being a literal target dummy to prove that smn needs movement to shine is so ironic it should hurt, that fight is the definition of "catering to samurai and blackmages strengths" yet they come out barely ahead while summoner STILL offers a rez.

Also i didn't discredit alliance raids in a "no one does them" way, but again, alliance raids for whatever reason does not use the rdps statistic for rankings but the adps one, of course more selfish classes, especially if they are the one that get funneled buffs end up ahead this way.

for simplicitys sake, just imagine a smn does 16k and buffs the group for 400, a blm does 16.2k and offers no buffs. at this point every dancer, astrologian and dragoon not going for a melee will buff the blackmage which will than make it look like they smn only does 16k while the blackmage does 17,5 , buffs naturally will go towards more selfish classes as they tend to have higher personal dps which in turn makes it look like the gap there is way bigger than it really is, thats why we actually moved over to rdps rankings, therefore it stands to reason smn is way closer to the top in alliance raids than statistic make it out to be, at the very least however it would move over into the "inconclusive data".

i'll give you the "dungeon" statistic, dunno why i couldn't make it show me dps like that when i last looked, guess i misclicked something, rarely check dungeons, but that is literally the only place in the game where smn isn't at the top 75%+ of the time (again, while offering a rezz, something these other classes so high up don't) and its also the easiest kind of content.

yes it is also the most used, but what does this matter ? balance matters where theres a realistic chance using something not optimal will give you a noticibly harder time, dungeons simply put are way to easy for that. If how many players used certain content was all that mattered than we should make it top priority that classes are balanced at lower levels, after all, level skips notwithstanding everyone thats level 80 has been level 16 once, while not everyone that enters sastasha will ever complete the game, therefore the most important would be that sastasha as the first group content ist the most balanced place in the game as the most diverse cast of people will play it.

[Miminming]

the buff part is irrevelant since we are looking at rdps though, BLM and SAM with in almost every fight is adps department...

[TheRealQuah]

Well then they need to stop designing Savage and Ultimate in a way that caters to the strengths of one single job. Which means they are going to have to stop making them so movement intensive.

Then the other jobs will shine the same way they do in all other forms of content.

That again is a content balance issue, not a class balance issue and has little to do with the SMN. And SMN would stop dominating that one single type of content wouldn't they?

Oh but wait then they wouldn't be any fun would they? So in other words... it is NOT the ONLY thing that stresses out the system... but rather the ONLY type of content which specifically caters to the strengths of the SMN job (ie, a Pet +DoT job). It just happens to be the only thing that is HARD for all OTHER jobs.

false, i know people who dont do savage nor ultimate but actually complainng and care about their damage, theres some people who complaining in this forum dont have a trace of doing savage nor ultimate, casual player also complaining againt time they need to finish a dungeon because of their job lower dps etc etc, so sorry, its not only high tier players matter.

if you are talking the NEED to care about damage then theres no need to... why? all class can clear them even in week 1...

If you have a casual player complaining that it's taking too long to finish their dungeon, then it isn't because they went as RDM instead of BLM. It's because they're trash. Same goes for people locking classes out of content. The reason they can't clear isn't because they have a RDM in the party, it's because they suck. A competent RDM is better than 95% of every other DPS player.

Job balance should be done around the hardest content and the best players in the game. It's not elitist. It's not ignoring the larger casual playerbase. It's how it's done in every game, and is the only way it can be done. Imagine if they balanced classes around Barry "25 minute Expert Roulette" Casual - competent players would clear everything in 5 minutes.

SMN is overpowered. SE know it is and agree, that's why they nerfed it, they just didn't go far enough. It's nothing to do with fight design. The top clear in the world for Shiva currently has both a SMN and BLM. Guess what, the BLM has more uptime.

[Silverquick]

Oh, hello, thank you for viewing my article. My article is somewhat subjective, and some inadequacies please forgive me.
But I'm not sure, please check the following.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=69
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=70
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=71
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=72
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=DPS&boss=1050

You know, SMN has the characteristics of higher resurrection and mobility, why he will compete with BLM and SAM without resurrection and mobility conditions.

It is not that your argument or rather that your post is inaccurate, it is that you misunderstood the actual arguement being made.

The arguement being made is not that SMN doesn't dominate Savage and Movement intensive content... it is that it does NOT dominate non movement intensive combat where other jobs come out on top quite significantly. Indicating that it is not a SMN balance issue as both jobs you named actually come out on top of Summoner in DPS output in various types of non Savage, non movement intensive instances, or rather instances that do not require an extreme type of movement.

Indicating that it is not a SMN balance issue... but rather a content balance issue that caters specifically to SMN strengths where the other jobs were never designed to be able to handle that, as those other jobs have no problems in general beating the SMN.

In other words all Savage/Ultimate content is flawed in its execution, as if they specifically designed a situation that would pose a difficult challenge for ALL other jobs except the Summoner because of the way the job works... as evidenced by the fact it is not dominating either Dungeons or Alliance Raids and even a lot of Normal 8 man Eden Raids.

So the SMN only dominates ONE specific TYPE of combat. Any instance without an extreme amount of movement and the SMN loses... in some cases BADLY.

[Akiudo]

the buff part is irrevelant since we are looking at rdps though, BLM and SAM with in almost every fight is adps department...

yes and again, alliance raids ranks people based on dps, that why saying "smn is not top in alliance raid" is faulty logic, thanks for agreeing with me that blm and sam obviously reign supreme if all we look at is adps

[SaitoHikari]

the buff part is irrevelant since we are looking at rdps though, BLM and SAM with in almost every fight is adps department...

That’s the thing. Nobody cares about adps until you have enough to push ahead in the rdps department. This concept powered the meta in Stormblood, the selfish dps had far higher personal damage, but not enough to break the piercing/crit stacking meta.

That said, to understand the point of view for those that argue Summoner is still unbalanced in the context of the caster role alone, you don’t need to look further than what the relationship between Bard and Machinist was like back in Stormblood. Bard was absolutely busted in comparison - it gave party utility and also simultaneously benefited the most from crit/piercing meta. Bard also performed far better in situations involving multiple enemies due to their dot/proc nature. Machinist benefited too for being a piercing class, but otherwise all they had was slightly higher personal damage.

It sounds suspiciously like what the relationship between Summoner and the other two classes is like today, does it not? I as a Bard main don’t really have a personal stake in this particular argument, other than calling the situation what it is before it spirals out of control. Again.

[Miminming]

(i bet people change their mind if fflogs actually showing adps in their main page instead of rdps...)

[Silverquick]

yes and again, alliance raids ranks people based on adps, that why saying "smn is not top in alliance raid" is faulty logic, thanks for agreeing with me that blm and sam obviously reign supreme if all we look at is adps

No it is not,

It is you misunderstanding just how little RDPS a SMN actually puts out.
SMN has only one party buff and its 5% damage for 15 seconds and that's only once every 3 minutes (CD). Ifrit no longer has the Damaging Shield to other players anymore.

By Contrast the Red Mage Embolden (increases RDM Magic Damage, and other players Melee Damage)... starts out at 10% for 20 seconds... and decreases by 20% every 4 seconds. Its CD is 2 minutes.

Summoner simply does not put out enough RDPS at this point to be significant as a "buff others" job and it is not significant enough to do what you are saying.

But it doesn't take long to look through a lot of logs to see SMN RDPS isn't much different than its ADPS at this point.