Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[Akiudo]

the type of content you are tunnel visioned into.... plays to EVERY strength of the Summoner job.

lets see, summoner dominate in savage raids, summoner dominate in 3 out of 4 normal mode raid turns, summoner dominate in ex trials, normal mode isn't listed, while its pretty fair to assume its the same there lets just say "not enough data" and call this neither a loss nor win for summoner,, it dominates in ultimate and dungeons don't even list class dps as such, if going by dungeons than bard isn't just good but great.

oh and yea, smn actually is in a pretty good spot in the alliance raid, fun fact, the alliance raid actually lists your "regular" dps instead of rdps for rankings, don't know why it does this, but it indeed does, i'd imagine its because of nin and trick attack not being designed for 24 people but no idea really, either way summoner is in a pretty good spot there aswell, like it actually looks like summoner is falling behind, but in reality its very much contender for the top spot on all fights, its just that "pure" dps look better by default as they have no buffs they offer to the group, and if say the blackmage does only 100 personal dps more than the summoner than a dancer would be advised to buff the blackmage, which in turn would widen the gap, add to that that melees will mostly buff each other if given a choice (mostly thinking dragoon and dragon sight range here) and you end up in a situation where certain classes look way better than they actually are, which mostly was the reason for the switch to rdps for rankings to begin with.

so yea, summoner only clearly dominates in all the hardest content, while at worst being in a very good spot in every other bit of content as far as we can tell, certainly the problem lies with only cherrypicking the data set one wants

[Silverquick]

dungeons don't even list class dps as such, if going by dungeons than bard isn't just good but great.

Look closely, that Dungeon Damage is segmented specifically to class damage.

I specifically segmented it by damage not speed.

As for the rest... no very few people actually play savage or ultimates for that matter. Guess what the majority of the people in this game play?

Yeah normal dungeon raids. Heck its even hard to get them to play Alliance raids, let alone a Savage raid. BUT at least you CAN get them to play Alliance Raids.

You are tunnel visioned into Savage.

[Akiudo]

Look closely, that Dungeon Damage is segmented specifically to class damage.

I specifically segmented it by damage not speed.

As for the rest... no very few people actually play savage or ultimates for that matter. Guess what the majority of the people in this game play?

Yeah normal dungeon raids. Heck its even hard to get them to play Alliance raids, let alone a Savage raid. BUT at least you CAN get them to play Alliance Raids.

You are tunnel visioned into Savage.

what is a "normal dungeon raid" ? you mean normal mode raids ? in that case again, smn is top in 3 out 4 of the current fights, even in normal mode. and btw, accusing others of cherry picking their data by only looking at the stuff that explicitly works towards smn strengths, yet linking e2 data, a fight that comes very close to being a literal target dummy to prove that smn needs movement to shine is so ironic it should hurt, that fight is the definition of "catering to samurai and blackmages strengths" yet they come out barely ahead while summoner STILL offers a rez.

Also i didn't discredit alliance raids in a "no one does them" way, but again, alliance raids for whatever reason does not use the rdps statistic for rankings but the adps one, of course more selfish classes, especially if they are the one that get funneled buffs end up ahead this way.

for simplicitys sake, just imagine a smn does 16k and buffs the group for 400, a blm does 16.2k and offers no buffs. at this point every dancer, astrologian and dragoon not going for a melee will buff the blackmage which will than make it look like they smn only does 16k while the blackmage does 17,5 , buffs naturally will go towards more selfish classes as they tend to have higher personal dps which in turn makes it look like the gap there is way bigger than it really is, thats why we actually moved over to rdps rankings, therefore it stands to reason smn is way closer to the top in alliance raids than statistic make it out to be, at the very least however it would move over into the "inconclusive data".

i'll give you the "dungeon" statistic, dunno why i couldn't make it show me dps like that when i last looked, guess i misclicked something, rarely check dungeons, but that is literally the only place in the game where smn isn't at the top 75%+ of the time (again, while offering a rezz, something these other classes so high up don't) and its also the easiest kind of content.

yes it is also the most used, but what does this matter ? balance matters where theres a realistic chance using something not optimal will give you a noticibly harder time, dungeons simply put are way to easy for that. If how many players used certain content was all that mattered than we should make it top priority that classes are balanced at lower levels, after all, level skips notwithstanding everyone thats level 80 has been level 16 once, while not everyone that enters sastasha will ever complete the game, therefore the most important would be that sastasha as the first group content ist the most balanced place in the game as the most diverse cast of people will play it.

[Miminming]

the buff part is irrevelant since we are looking at rdps though, BLM and SAM with in almost every fight is adps department...

[Akiudo]

the buff part is irrevelant since we are looking at rdps though, BLM and SAM with in almost every fight is adps department...

yes and again, alliance raids ranks people based on dps, that why saying "smn is not top in alliance raid" is faulty logic, thanks for agreeing with me that blm and sam obviously reign supreme if all we look at is adps

[Silverquick]

yes and again, alliance raids ranks people based on adps, that why saying "smn is not top in alliance raid" is faulty logic, thanks for agreeing with me that blm and sam obviously reign supreme if all we look at is adps

No it is not,

It is you misunderstanding just how little RDPS a SMN actually puts out.
SMN has only one party buff and its 5% damage for 15 seconds and that's only once every 3 minutes (CD). Ifrit no longer has the Damaging Shield to other players anymore.

By Contrast the Red Mage Embolden (increases RDM Magic Damage, and other players Melee Damage)... starts out at 10% for 20 seconds... and decreases by 20% every 4 seconds. Its CD is 2 minutes.

Summoner simply does not put out enough RDPS at this point to be significant as a "buff others" job and it is not significant enough to do what you are saying.

But it doesn't take long to look through a lot of logs to see SMN RDPS isn't much different than its ADPS at this point.

[Akiudo]

No it is not,

It is you misunderstanding just how little RDPS a SMN actually puts out.
SMN has only one party buff and its 5% damage for 15 seconds and that's only once every 3 minutes (CD). Ifrit no longer has the Damaging Shield to other players anymore.

By Contrast the Red Mage Embolden (increases RDM Magic Damage, and other players Melee Damage)... starts out at 10% for 20 seconds... and decreases by 20% every 4 seconds. Its CD is 2 minutes.

Summoner simply does not put out enough RDPS at this point to be significant as a "buff others" job and it is not significant enough to do what you are saying.

But it doesn't take long to look through a lot of logs to see SMN RDPS isn't much different than its ADPS at this point.

that isn't the point, again,

if
smn does 16k dps (personal)+300 as raidbuff
and
blm does 16,1k, no raidbuff

than at this (theoretical) point smn would be stronger than blackmage

BUT
in this same scenario every dancer would buff blackmage over smn, every astro would buff blackmage over summoner, every dragoon would buff blackmage over summoner

this than would show up as
blackmage 17,5k (just for example)
smn 16k

the question is not how much rdps summoner adds, that isn't that much, the question is "on average, how many blackmages will get buffs funneled to them because their personal dps is higher than summoners?"

as everyone and their mother works under the assumption that blackmage/samurai at least win out as far as personal dps is concerned they naturally will get singled out for buffs most of the time, that has nothing to do with the amount a smn buffs the group for, that much while still there indeed isn't "that" much. also i know this may be a hard concept but you don't need to be the absolute strongest class in every content to be op, being the clearly strongest in all the hardest content while at worst "above average" in content way easier all while still offering greater support than every class even above you in what amounts to your weakest kind of content still very much qualifys.

furthermore i never said blackmage/samurai may not very well be stronger in alliance raids, if anything it would make sense for them to be as you can stay in shit and not drop dead if so inclined, and obviously less mobile classes start at a higher baseline, the point however is that buff funneling exists, in fact it happens completly naturally if you want to maximize your own potential, however it makes differences between dps look way better than they in reality are. no i'm not saying smn outright beats blackmage/samurai in alliance raids, i am however saying that the difference thats shown is way smaller in reality than looking at dps rankings makes it out to be, this isn't about smn being 200 dps or so higher, this is about these other classes being 500-1000 lower if not for buff funneling

and again, before someone else needs to remind me how the evil parsing site works . for the alliance raids fflogs actually uses dps, that is the dps actually shown on a parser while hitting the boss, they will still list your raid contribution in a "gave x, received y" way if you open the logs, but the thing you are actually ranked on is in fact simply "dps", single target buffs included

[SaitoHikari]

the buff part is irrevelant since we are looking at rdps though, BLM and SAM with in almost every fight is adps department...

That’s the thing. Nobody cares about adps until you have enough to push ahead in the rdps department. This concept powered the meta in Stormblood, the selfish dps had far higher personal damage, but not enough to break the piercing/crit stacking meta.

That said, to understand the point of view for those that argue Summoner is still unbalanced in the context of the caster role alone, you don’t need to look further than what the relationship between Bard and Machinist was like back in Stormblood. Bard was absolutely busted in comparison - it gave party utility and also simultaneously benefited the most from crit/piercing meta. Bard also performed far better in situations involving multiple enemies due to their dot/proc nature. Machinist benefited too for being a piercing class, but otherwise all they had was slightly higher personal damage.

It sounds suspiciously like what the relationship between Summoner and the other two classes is like today, does it not? I as a Bard main don’t really have a personal stake in this particular argument, other than calling the situation what it is before it spirals out of control. Again.