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  1. #91
    Player
    Ramura_Sono's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    124
    Character
    R'amura Sono
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Miner Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Connor View Post

    They tried to put it back and the result was the passive buffs on Bard songs that kinda defeat the purpose of ‘song buffs’, since Bard is supposed to be ‘singing to support the party’, not ‘singing to damage the enemy and coincidentally increasing party damage’.
    Except, songs have been that since Stormblood. So, why is this only now a problem?

    Ranged should have stayed a purely support based role, instead of following the Pure damage, less damage more utility variation inside the melee/caster roles.
    (0)

  2. #92
    Player
    Connor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    2,166
    Character
    Connor Whelan
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono View Post
    Except, songs have been that since Stormblood. So, why is this only now a problem?

    Ranged should have stayed a purely support based role, instead of following the Pure damage, less damage more utility variation inside the melee/caster roles.
    For me it’s a problem now because they had real support options in Stormblood to supplement the passive songs so there was still a feeling of actually ‘supporting the party’.

    When Stormblood was released I was pretty sad to see songs go in the direction they did, though I honestly can’t remember if I posted about them at the time (probably lol)


    Refresh/Tactician and Palisade from skills, Foe Requiem, Troubadour (now essentially a role skill), half the cooldown on Nature’s Minne were all things that made the job feel like it was actually helping rather than just pressing their dps buttons and the help being a ‘happy accident’.

    In terms of personal preference I personally found support sings much more enjoyable to use in 2.0/3.0. The damage debuff sucked, but I loved being able to use my songs when they were actually needed and having to manage MP usage to maximise song buff uptimes, plus having to accommodate their cast times into a non-cast time rotation, which meant the otherwise repetitive attack priority loop (Straight Shot - DoTs - Heavy Shot and Proc spam) would have to be adjusted to get the songs out at the right time.

    Not saying we need those kind of songs with cast time / mp cost etc back, since I’m aware it’d pretty much kill the entire bard player base. Just that it was the version of them I enjoyed most personally.

    I mean, for all the things the devs claim to have achieved, is ‘making fun to use but not totally overpowered support abilities’ really the one insurmountable task? That’s not to say that they should just totally redesign the whole role as a pure support, because that would be doing way too far in the wrong direction. I just mean giving the ranged jobs some support abilities that are more than just ‘press button to deal damage (and also a little bit of support).

    I do agree that ranged should have stayed a ‘support’ oriented role. It’s just weird that they’ve become ‘pure-but-not-pure-enough dps’ in 5X instead of just staying how they were for every other expansion
    (3)
    Last edited by Connor; 03-02-2020 at 05:45 AM.

  3. #93
    Player
    Warskull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    24
    Character
    Boreas Redgrave
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 69
    Quote Originally Posted by Kewitt View Post
    No clue what my numbers are but as dancer I often sit 3 or 4 in threat. Most people out side of savage have no clue.
    Most people out side of savage have no clue.

    Your average random player is typically not going to be very good. Even if you try to do raid via party finder.

    Typically, anyone competent gets gobbled up by a static because they don't want to have to suffer through party finder randos.
    (3)

  4. #94
    Player
    Raqrie_Tohka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    174
    Character
    Sokhatai Tohka
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Akiudo View Post
    ....

    .....

    ....

    And yes again, for emphasis, denying classes equal value based on perceived difficulty is pure Elitism and easy to say for someone that doesn't really care for the class or role s/he plays.
    This 100%. Elitism and bait-and-switch hidden taxes are not healthy for games.
    (1)

  5. #95
    Player
    Mikaeus_The_Lunarch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    95
    Character
    Mikaeus Thelunarch
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by CKNovel View Post
    once a fight is done there is little room for optimization, MCH is limited to cast as much Drills as possible.
    Hot damn do i feel this. Other than minor adjustments to queen placement/timing, adjusting for boss invuln better, and trying to stick as much as i can into buff windows i feel kinda helpless trying to improve my MCH play.
    (1)

  6. #96
    Player
    Dfess's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    New Gridania
    Posts
    181
    Character
    Kair Kindheart
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by deadman1204 View Post
    Ranged shouldn't ever compete for best dps. They have group abilities, and they are the safest class to play. You are at range and always moving.

    You may not value your mobility, but it is a perk all the same. To compete for parse topping dps, you gotta switch to a job with less survivability and party aid.
    How does this make sense? All dps should be competing in parse regardless of utility, mobility or survivability.
    (2)

  7. #97
    Player
    Miminming's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    447
    Character
    Arclest Aura
    World
    Belias
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 80
    because then nobody gonna play job like BLM, why study the timeline hard when you can run around the map as ranged with the same dps?

    some job are low risk low return, others is the opposite
    (1)

  8. #98
    Player
    CKNovel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Posts
    1,915
    Character
    Cassia Kaedhan
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Miminming View Post
    because then nobody gonna play job like BLM, why study the timeline hard when you can run around the map as ranged with the same dps?

    some job are low risk low return, others is the opposite
    Hey there, here's a quick catch-up as there is a lot of misinformation:

    Ranged DPS acknowledged the gap and it must exist
    - It remains debatable as SMN/RDM have 40~50% of their cast instant while also bringing a res.
    - The gap is so large that a BLM could not use Thunder at all, it would deal the same rDPS as a BRD.
    - The goal is not to fill the gap but to reduce it. 1K DPS gap is way too much in many's opinion.

    Ranged DPS Utility is low compared to previous expansion
    - Back in SB, ranged DPS had Refresh, Palisade, Dismantle and other tools. In ShB, most of it is gone and Addle is weaker but much more flexible.
    - The real game changer is the 1% Stats the ranged brings just from filling that role in the team.

    Muh Mobility
    - Many acknowledge that mobility is not as strong as many thought. A good example is this tier that required to be much more mobile. Yet, BLM and SMN were still far above Ranged on week one where progression should be a priority over DPS. Melees&Caster are still optimizing their DPS as there is new uptime strats coming up as days passes.
    - As Ranged requires little optimization, they should have shined during this first week, which was not the case.
    - In E7S, where the boss can be hit from half the map and where repositionning is often required, Melees takes the crown. It only punishes Casters, not rewards rangeds.
    - Mobility wise, most jobs have plenty of tools to reposition themselves, especially with the charges mechanics recently introduced.
    - There's a good chunk of ranged who would welcome back the Casts time/complexity for additionnal damages.
    - There is much more clears with 1 Melee / 2 Casters / 1 Ranged rather than 1 Melee / 1 Casters / 2 Rangeds. Ironically, it's a huge risk to pick BRD and DNC rather than double casters where you'll get an additionnal res.

    Overrall, the ranged DPS are pretty tired to be picked only for the 1% damages, it gives a "Take your little brother with you" situation.
    The gap should exist but it's way too large right now.
    (4)

  9. #99
    Player
    Spiroglyph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    632
    Character
    Soft Boiled
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    It requires a lot more skill for a melee, tank or caster to maintain full uptime than any of the ranged, that can hit anything while dancing in and out of the boss' melee range.

    The fact that a good melee can maintain uptime through mechanics doesn't mean it's not difficult to do or optimize, which is just not the case for a ranged.

    Ranged jobs should never be close to top DPS - I agree they could use some buffs right now, though.
    (2)

  10. #100
    Player
    Darkpaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Ul Dah
    Posts
    470
    Character
    Akio Foxx
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Skill is not the only issue or even being debated. From what I can see no one is denying it requires more skill to run as a melee or caster than ranged.

    It’s not about top dps those absolutely belong to Sam and Blm, but let’s look at smn. You have devotion and rez. Dragoons have dragon sight, and battle littany, monks have mantra and brotherhood.

    Mch has mobility and tactician something both the other ranged have but they both bring more to the table. I don’t think its unreasonable to want to tighten up the gap.

    Dnc and brd need a little more oomph, machinists need a lot more, it should be parsing nearer to drg and mnk than it is. Im not advocating for it to be at sam, blm, but nearer to drg, mnk, and smn to give it a solid place option. (Please note i said nearer not overtaking.)
    (1)

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