Is it official? Are we tempered? (5.2 spoilers / speculation)

[Vyrerus]

I guess it depends on if you take Emet-Selch at his word when he told us that he and the other members of the Convocation were tempered and slaves to Zodiark's will. Personally, I kind of like to think that what he said was a lie to help him distance himself from his guilt over killing billions over and over again.

Of course, some people allude to Zenos's interpretation of the Echo/Resonance allowing you to contest the will of a Primal, and go as far to assert your control over it. Primals themselves are kind of like a perverse form of creation magic, and for the most part I assume they do not really possess souls, only physical aether and the will imparted on them by their summoners' beliefs. Though, Zodiark and Hydaelyn differ by having Ancients as their hearts/cores/base, so they did possess souls and rather strong full ones at that. With that being the case, it'd be easy to see that they have the stronger form and soul, with part of the primal's will being to subjugate other Ancients. So it makes sense that the Ascians could be tempered.

I think that tempering is basically the corruption of someone's soul, which is why remedying it is so difficult/impossible. Basically standard and even extreme versions of primals can't temper those with the Echo, because we have strong souls and the ability to use our soul and directly combat the wills of other.

I don't think Hydaelyn tempers people, because her entire point was to counteract the dictatorship of Zodiark. If anything, since her attacks were designed to split and enervate her opposition, then it stands to reason that she removed Zodiark's heart as well as his total control by also enervating his tempering effect.

Also in 2.0 our WoL picks up a Crystal of Light, hears Hydaelyn's voice, and is then shown the falling stars. She refers to us as crystal bearer, and tells us we must journey to find the other crystals. Once that concludes, the next we hear from her, is when she directly intervenes in the fight Ultima Weapon in Praetorium. She enervates it and removes its armor's integrity. Then she also allows us to combat Lahabrea without killing Thancred.

After that it's at 2.55 when she takes Minfilia, which we learn about in 3.x in the Antitower, where Hydaelyn has weakened considerably and had to take in Minfilia to save herself. As of now, that torch was passed to Ryne, with Minfilia's consciousness dying more or less, sorta similar to how Ardbert merges with us. Even they, Minfilia and Ryne, had/have wills that are completely their own. Though if I remember right, Hydaelyn was speaking through Minfilia the first time we talk to her after Antitower. It's fun to think about, but also mildly confusing.

[Iscah]

Though if I remember right, Hydaelyn was speaking through Minfilia the first time we talk to her after Antitower. It's fun to think about, but also mildly confusing.

From memory, when we get the six crystals together in 3.4 and are drawn to the aetherial sea, Minfilia specifically says that the energy given to Hydaelyn from the crystals has made Her strong enough that She can set Minfilia free again. So it seems that She was on the absolute verge of fading altogether to absorb Minfilia in the first place. She certainly doesn't seem to have waited to be at full strength again before releasing her - rather has let her go at the first possible chance.

[Alleo]

If we are not tempered, is it really the Echo that protects us? Of course, it might be that the Echo can be overpowered of by extremely powerful primal, but what if it is something we have not heard about yet?

On the other hand, if it is the Echo, will it protect us from Zodiark?

Seeing how Arenvald, Zenos and other people have only the echo and they can fight primals just fine it kinda hints that its the echo that does that.

[Anonymoose]

Some of the questions and word choices seem to suggest that this might be a good time to mention:
The game doesn't often take the opportunity to remind us that the Warrior of Light has a whole basket of gifts.

The Echo
The jailbreaking of the soul. It's not necessarily the addition of new powers, but the removal of common limitations. It makes the walls of the soul more sensitive and permeable, allowing them to "resonate" with other souls while deepening the aetherial wellspring. Elidibus has recently revealed that this is a small fragment of the power the "true humanity" once possessed, reclaimed upon remembering the Final Days, a memory forever etched into spiritual aether of those who bore witness.

The Blessing of Light
A result of a mysterious connection with Hydaelyn, often evidenced by hearing Her voice, receiving Her gifts (Crystals of Light), and being granted divine intervention as She casts Her influence through those crystals into the corporeal world at great personal cost. Elidibus has recently revealed that Hydaelyn is always reaching out, and that those who awaken to the Echo are thus immediately swept up in Her call, receive Her blessing, and become Her followers. If anything about is is akin to being "tempered", this is likely to be the source. However, as others have noticed, the Hydaelyn's followers have acted against Her in the past, both indirectly in ways they didn't know would harm Her but She surely would have tried to prevent and deliberately, overtly working against Her.

The "Champion Factor"
Hydaelyn has chosen the Warrior of Light as her "Champion" - a boon we do not understand. Those who realize we have it inevitably have a strong reaction. Lahabrea resolves to toy with us to speed up his plans and destroy us before we can become a threat; Lahabrea and Elidibus both remark that it has been millennia since they have seen one of our kind. Midgardsormr, on the other hand, is furious when he realizes that he is bound to help us - the insignificant ant with no concept of history who just asked him to call off Nidhogg. Though Midgardsormr later admits his misjudgement, he believed we drained Hydaelyn with the "Champion Factor" to pretend to be a hero. Whatever this is, it allows us to interfere with the aetherial realm directly. To draw Crystals of Light to ourselves and keep them radiant. To call upon Midgardsormr and enforce his covenant. I'm rather hoping it's some kind of bitter-sweet hail-mary. Hydaelyn awakening a fragment of an Ancient that She once knew and throwing them into the bedlam hoping that, somehow, they would make the impossible possible.

[Cilia]

Just to clarify a couple bits a little more:

The Echo, as revealed in 5.2, is calling back to the power of the Ancients. It allows wielders to bypass the boundaries of the soul and glimpse the memories of others, as well as augments their will so as to withstand attempts at Primal branding. This power, presumably, is limited to those possessing an Ancient's (fragmented) soul, awoken by a starshower triggering memories of the Final Days.

The Blessing of Light is the power bestowed upon those who heed Hydaelyn's call, proportional in strength to the number of Crystals of Light they have manifested. The Warrior of Light (PC) is shorn of this blessing by Midgardsormr during the 2.5 questline and gradually regains it over 3.0's story. It should be noted that not everyone with the Echo is afforded any measure of Hydaelyn's blessing; neither Minfilia nor Krile appear to have manifested any crystals, and thus remain "just" Echo users. Likewise while Elidibus' nascent Echo users from the Crystarium do have the Echo, calling them "Warriors of Light" or saying they have Hydaelyn's blessing is inaccurate (thus far).

Hydaelyn's Champion, if anything official, is likely a title limited to the PC due to their manifesting Crystals of Light of all six elements. While there are others with Hydaelyn's blessing to some degree or another, nobody else has been shown to manifest even two, let alone all six. This is what makes the PC unique and contributes to their consistent victories in the face of impossible odds (in addition to their own over halfway compleat Ancient soul, the Echo, their Soul Crystal(s) granting preternatural combat prowess, and their own talent and training).

As far as tempering goes, again, if we're able to question whether or not we're tempered we probably are not; and even if we are, it's had no observable effect on our behavior. As a primal Hydaelyn should be able to temper people, but due to her anti-primal raison d'etre, isn't likely to influence the behavior of those she tempers. The only person I'd consider truly tempered by Hydaelyn would be Minfilia (as "The Word of the Mother") due to the physical and psychological effects Hydaelyn's influence had on her. (Even then, she is released from such compelled service not too long afterward, though her devotion and the physical changes remain.)

[Alleo]

Some of the questions and word choices seem to suggest that this might be a good time to mention:
The game doesn't often take the opportunity to remind us that the Warrior of Light has a whole basket of gifts.

The Echo

The Blessing of Light
A result of a mysterious connection with Hydaelyn, often evidenced by hearing Her voice, receiving Her gifts (Crystals of Light), and being granted divine intervention as She casts Her influence through those crystals into the corporeal world at great personal cost. Elidibus has recently revealed that Hydaelyn is always reaching out, and that those who awaken to the Echo are thus immediately swept up in Her call, receive Her blessing, and become Her followers. If anything about is is akin to being "tempered", this is likely to be the source. However, as others have noticed, the Hydaelyn's followers have acted against Her in the past, both indirectly in ways they didn't know would harm Her but She surely would have tried to prevent and deliberately, overtly working against Her.

So we know that the echo is something from the old time that awakens if sundered ancient souls see their memories of the final days (which means that the Sahagin priest had the soul of an Amaurotine too) which then could mean that everyone else is a new soul, but of course we know that other cities existed and the people there died before the final days of the world so maybe everyone is an ancient soul but those with the echo are from Amaurotine.

But I believe that Elidibus is not telling the truth with saying that Hydealyn already gives people the blessing just when they receive the echo. We know that not everyone has even heard her yet quite a few people seemingly got the echo now. I am not sure if its ingame but Ardbert and his group also only received those crystals later in their adventure and not at the same time. Yet I doubt that Ardbert only got his echo and crystal at the end. They seemingly traveled together for quite a bit so how would they not see the star shower together that woke up their echo? And if they had the echo and only later got the crystals of light through very great deeds then that goes against what Elidibus said. Also didnt we too had the echo first and the very first crystal much later? And Arenvald seemingly has no crystal as far as we know.

[QT_Melon]

So we know that the echo is something from the old time that awakens if sundered ancient souls see their memories of the final days (which means that the Sahagin priest had the soul of an Amaurotine too) which then could mean that everyone else is a new soul, but of course we know that other cities existed and the people there died before the final days of the world so maybe everyone is an ancient soul but those with the echo are from Amaurotine.

But I believe that Elidibus is not telling the truth with saying that Hydealyn already gives people the blessing just when they receive the echo. We know that not everyone has even heard her yet quite a few people seemingly got the echo now. I am not sure if its ingame but Ardbert and his group also only received those crystals later in their adventure and not at the same time. Yet I doubt that Ardbert only got his echo and crystal at the end. They seemingly traveled together for quite a bit so how would they not see the star shower together that woke up their echo? And if they had the echo and only later got the crystals of light through very great deeds then that goes against what Elidibus said. Also didnt we too had the echo first and the very first crystal much later? And Arenvald seemingly has no crystal as far as we know.

I don't think what you're saying is the case either.

As it's been stated Zodiark rewrote the laws. Yet we still haven't found out what those laws were exactly. We also don't know how the new life appeared. Was it similar to how the Empty is being restored by Eden? Did the new life suddenly appear by a Primal that became the will of the star? Did it evolve, were Ancients giving birth to Ancients after the laws were rewritten? Did they become barren after the Final Days? Were they giving birth to "inferior" beings?

EDIT: It appaers an existential crisis occured on the aftermath.https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...t?usp=drivesdk

As eventually life did come to pass as Zodiark sowed the seeds for life to begin again. Preservation of their species, or allowing the new to take over.

Also Aumaurot is a CITY, there were Ancients inhabiting the whole planet. The Sahagin priest has part(s) of the soul of an Ancient which the lifestream at least how it worked before Zodiark took souls to the Underworld once they served their purpose. We presume what happens to them is they break apart to form new souls and new life.

The memory of the starshower - was it viewed by EVERY Ancient? I mean if you looked at the dialog from the Cabinet of curiosity, the librarian was only TOLD about it and did not witness the event firsthand. With Ancients all over the world - would not be surprised if not everyone witnessed the event due to various circumstances. Like say sheltering children for example...


As far as Elidibus goes did he say "already" or more like she does the call to see who is worthy of said blessing? She's basically doing "interviews" - till people prove their creds?

[LineageRazor]

I, personally, do not believe that Hydaelyn is tempering people. The Ancients created all manner of things without becoming enthralled to them - Zodiark was the first example of this changing. Because of this, I believe Zodiark to be an abnormality in this regard, one that the Ascians capitalized on when they taught the mortal races how to Summon. So, unless the Dissenters deliberately baked Tempering into Hydaelyn, it's not something she does.

However, if Hydaelyn DOES temper, I suspect that "hear, feel, think" and all that is her command to all of her Tempered. In the words of Elisa Maza from Gargoyles, "I order you to act for the rest of your life exactly as you would if you were not under a spell." This would have the benefit of making her chosen immune to the attempts by others to Temper them, while also ensuring that her chosen have entirely free wills.

Given how many of Hydaelyn's chosen have acted directly against her interests, either she's not Tempering, or she's allowing completely free rein for those she has tempered, or she's engaged in some of the most labyrinthine, wheels-within-wheels plotting imaginable! ("Yessss… By having Saint Ajora summon Ultima, another training ground will be in place for my ultimate pawn, the Warrior of Light, thousands of years from now!" *Steeples fingers and chuckles to herself.*)

[QT_Melon]

I, personally, do not believe that Hydaelyn is tempering people. The Ancients created all manner of things without becoming enthralled to them - Zodiark was the first example of this changing. Because of this, I believe Zodiark to be an abnormality in this regard, one that the Ascians capitalized on when they taught the mortal races how to Summon. So, unless the Dissenters deliberately baked Tempering into Hydaelyn, it's not something she does.

However, if Hydaelyn DOES temper, I suspect that "hear, feel, think" and all that is her command to all of her Tempered. In the words of Elisa Maza from Gargoyles, "I order you to act for the rest of your life exactly as you would if you were not under a spell." This would have the benefit of making her chosen immune to the attempts by others to Temper them, while also ensuring that her chosen have entirely free wills.

I'm thinking that tempering is a little more complex to just bowing to a primal's power and being enthralled by it. I think it affects the nature of being. Even in Tales from the Shadows it does seem like Emet earnestly at some points of his life decided to just settle down only to life give him some harsh reminders. He's also said so in MSQ. Does it justify killing/sacrificing a portion of the new life or doing what he's doing now? No. But it is to show that there is some resisting to be had or going against the directive. Whether or not is this due to Zodiark being sundered is rather debatable.

So I think the argument about people going against Hydaelyn needs more...specifics since she's also been weakened as well. I say this because the WoD(L - the First counterparts) went against her will but this was after the flood of light happened. Regardless of the Ascians involvement in having a way to siphon the flood that became their advantage for the calamity, I do feel there is something to be said about having "too much" in any aspect.

As far as tempering, not sure if it's done at the moment or later. Since we have learned Echo is separate from her blessing. The nature of the tempering is probably more aspected to the primal and its element.

If Elidibus isn't lying - what he's showing is the signal is always on. What WE are learning is she is being specific in her choosing. I mean he basically forced the connection to cause havoc. That doesn't mean Hydaelyn does it willy nilly. I mean okay, he could be lying, but he could have just made an entire world illusion with the Starshower as far as I know to get people to become heroes I guess. It's interesting his demo was mostly the Crystarium enough to cause troubles, but like I said in another thread, I don't think it's *that* simple (cuz if it is, I'm gonna have a big stink about how downhill the writing has gone for something that could have happened at ANY time).



Hydaelyn as a system was designed to be a failsafe. It makes sense to use certain individuals - ie Ancient souls to help accomplish this. Hear Feel Think it's just about individualism, it's a sort of awakening of our ancient selves. If said signal is always on...why do we need to ALWAYS hear it if tempered or not? "Totally (Hear). Not (Feel). Tempering You(Think)" every time we have a conversation. I mean I guess an argument can be made that she has to do it EVERY time to make sure.

Summarily almost forgot to say, I guess another argument can be made that if she already tempers, she wouldn't need to say it again. Though we're apparently reincarnated multiple times so I wonder why have the signal on all the time if supposedly tempering sticks - ie the Ascians?


As far as everyone being able to hear the voice? I don't believe everyone did. It does show that the population of Ancients is a bit bigger than just the city of Amaurot.


I think she's targeting people with heroic qualities so if the case happens she does Temper it's not exceptionally bad due to her aspect/temperament and aligns with the goal of defeating the dark. It would also make sense not to do it willy nilly, as it's a checks and balances system.

But I guess while I can lean towards no she's not tempering. I can't write it off entirely that she is being selective.

And finally I did also do another batch of screencaps if people don't want to go back and forth to the Inn - the only problem though is the lack of "audio" since there's the scene where people hear her voice and they didn't bother to subtitle it.

https://imgur.com/a/w0C2Wlw

[Alleo]

I'm thinking that tempering is a little more complex to just bowing to a primal's power and being enthralled by it. I think it affects the nature of being. Even in Tales from the Shadows it does seem like Emet earnestly at some points of his life decided to just settle down only to life give him some harsh reminders. He's also said so in MSQ. Does it justify killing/sacrificing a portion of the new life or doing what he's doing now? No. But it is to show that there is some resisting to be had or going against the directive. Whether or not is this due to Zodiark being sundered is rather debatable.

Did he really thought to settle down? It seems more to me like for a bit he felt hope that maybe some of the new souls can go beyond their restrictions since his son grew up quite big. I honestly see nothing in there that made him think about stopping what he was planning to do, it sounded more like he thought that maybe not everyone was a lost cause.

About Hydealyn: We are not just talking about Ardbert and his group but also WoLs from older times where the crystals of light were also stronger. And we see it with other primals, even if that primal is not summoned at all they still continue to work for their will, even for someone like Ramuh who only wants them safe. I cant just see someone being tempered and then turn around and trying to attack their primal. No tempered ever showed any signs of going that much against their primal and even Emet Selchs plan was always meant to be a win for Zodiark. He outright states that he will kill us if we can contain the Light and if we cant then we are a monster that he can use for rejoining.

Of course Hydealyn can work on a whole different way and her tempering could give us some kind of free will..but then: Why would you even introduce her tempering people if it does not matter at the end at all? That would just be strange.

About us being reincarnated multiple times: Is there evidence for that? We do know that souls can be reborn but I dont remember any cases that WE also lived a couple of lifes since the sundering. Of course our shards may have lived at different times but I dont remember that any of the past WoL are us. Ramza and for example could not have been us because he was keeping Ultima in check, the same with Tenzen. Is there a possibilty that we already fought in the past? Sure! And maybe I forgot those clues but right now I doubt that we have been reborn that often.