Open Letter to the Devs Regarding Eden's Verse: Reflugence [Spoilers]

[Korten]

Are you seriously discounting fan art as not counting towards sexualization of characters, let alone suggestive dates with Aymeric in game, This community’s obsession with haurchefaunt, and any other number of instances. There are about as many cases of intentional female sexualization in this game as there are of males.

And far more evidence of respect for women. Every woman of power in this game has not been sexualized in the slightest in official media, and most are depicted as strong or stronger than men.

Yshtola, Merlyweb, Alisaie, Gaia, Kanna e senna, Livia, Severa, Yugiri, Lyse, Rowena (ultimate character in this game) Jun (Hildy’s mom) they’ve shown amazing development of Ryne herself (but lets throw all that character development away over a not even that revealing outfit) Lyra, Hilda, the list goes on and on, but one artistic design choice and all that goes away because “toxic white male gamers only care to sexualize women.”

This is exactly why we gamers hate this political shite in gaming.

Yes, I am discounting fan art because everything has lewd fan art. By your logic literally everything ever can be considered sexualization because fan art of it exists.

And you know what? FFXIV has done great job. No one is saying FFXIV has done a bad job of it's female characters. In fact in comparison to many Japanese games it's one of the best. That however doesn't suddenly make it above criticism or perfect.

Also politics? Yeah, we need more apolitical stuff like Metal Gear Solid, Bioshock, and FFXIV: Stormblood! (Fun fact: All of the games you play have politics in them as they're made by people who exist in societies that are shaped by the political landscape.)

[SaitoHikari]

Yes, I am discounting fan art because everything has lewd fan art. By your logic literally everything ever can be considered sexualization because fan art of it exists.

And you know what? FFXIV has done great job. No one is saying FFXIV has done a bad job of it's female characters. In fact in comparison to many Japanese games it's one of the best. That however doesn't suddenly make it above criticism or perfect.

Also politics? Yeah, we need more apolitical stuff like Metal Gear Solid, Bioshock, and FFXIV: Stormblood! (Fun fact: All of the games you play have politics in them as they're made by people who exist in societies that are shaped by the political landscape.)

I’m pretty much in the same boat here.

Reading the room, the impression I get is that at the very least, no one sane except for Mr. ‘she has boobs therefore she must be old enough to have agency’ is pretending this is actually okay. The difference in opinion lies in how much energy we want to put towards pursuing this argument.

Considering the rest of the game is thankfully lacking in this sort of thing (and is otherwise light years ahead in writing and characterization compared to most games today), I’m of the mindset that there are better battles to fight.

[linay]

Fair enough, but people will often use the "it's not pedophillia it's ephebophilia" excuse to dismiss concerns over sexualization of minors. It's semantics and arguing in bad faith.

No, it's not. There is a difference between the two and ignoring that is arguing in bad faith. Otherwise, you would take the correction and simply move on with your argument. Ephebophilia includes late teens like 18 and 19, which would not be underaged or considered a minor. And that still ignores that the scene itself is not about sex or doing anything of that nature with a minor.

Reading the room, the impression I get is that at the very least, no one sane except for Mr. ‘she has boobs therefore she must be old enough to have agency’ is pretending this is actually okay.

Well, a sane person would realize that this scene is not about sex with a minor. And unless or until SE is forced to change this, then it is okay. I assume they had to pass the ratings board.

[Astrapls]

No, it's not. There is a difference between the two and ignoring that is arguing in bad faith. Otherwise, you would take the correction and simply move on with your argument. Ephebophilia includes late teens like 18 and 19, which would not be underaged or considered a minor. And that still ignores that the scene itself is not about sex or doing anything of that nature with a minor.

Apologies, the term I was looking for is hebephilia. Even if she was 15 or 16, it's still gross and weird.

[QT_Melon]

Apologies, the term I was looking for is hebephilia. Even if she was 15 or 16, it's still gross and weird.

I'm sorry, but in terms of puberty, it pretty much ends around 15-17 years of age for women. We just mature faster physically. Mental maturity is a different matter and that's around 25 according to studies regarding our brains.

But in terms of video game characters, this gets a little more ridiculous to argue about given the limitations of the assets they're producing. Meaning the time they're working on the game, they're not gonna update her 3D model to show growth very well. I mean if anything I can see some kind of time shennanigans pop up and at some point if we end up meeting Ryne again in the future she would have fully grown. As it stands now I'm not sure why the mental exercise over a few years here or there for a fictional teen on the brink of womanhood.

I don't find the scene sexually exploiting her, but rather her coming of age. Thancred and Urianger will be leaving The First, so that means she's going to have to grow up at some point. This is why I felt the choice was fair for Ryne to be Shiva, each phase is showing a psyche of womanhood. I don't think it would have carried over symbolically if it were someone else. It makes us uncomfortable because we eventually have to see her as a woman, and not a child to protect. We're not ready for it literally, and figuratively I suppose. Phase 1 playing at an adult, 2 overwhelmed at becoming one, Phase 3 (Savage) eventually bonding with someone you love.

[Ceridwenae]

*snip* I liked your post though!

I've ummed and ahhed over this particular thread, not because I've not played the content, but because it popped up and I have a teen daughter with whom I discuss representations of girls and women in the media she engages with (including this game. Oh, this game has lots to talk to your teen about!). So, bear that in mind - that my knowledge of this instance is second hand based on what other players have said here, and the image of Ryne which was shared on the thread.

First, I have the same reaction as the OP; that's not cool! Argh! Child, not adult! Oof. That's not going to end well. How would I like it if someone did this to my daughter? Physical maturation, as you note, is not the same as psychological maturation, and there's so much more to adult relationships! *internal parent alarm going off* Don't grow up so fast! Kids should be kids! Someone think of the children! (seriously!).

I think that's okay to be disturbed by this scenario. But sooner or later - I suspect it'll always feel like it's sooner - you have to send your kid off as a young adult and deal with it. You're always the parent, you hope you've done a good job (at least, I hope I'm doing a good job now and it'll pay off in a few years), and you're always there to mop up in the likely event the kid screws up because of the fact the psychological stuff doesn't round up for quite a bit after the physical stuff.

I read about the story going around this particular raid series, and I absolutely can buy into your interpretation, QT_Melon - kid on the verge of physical adulthood plays at being adult in its entirety. It doesn't go well, teens have terrible judgement and take stupid risks to prove a point. That bonding with someone you love is the only thing I could argue as being somewhat squiffy on the off-chance it suggests a girl or woman can only find happiness by having a (male) significant other, but that's not what we're discussing here anyway (which again, I don't know if it is what's shown in the content or not so don't @ me! ). I think you are quite right, when you say about it making "us uncomfortable" neatly describing why someone might find this a disturbing or unwarranted depiction. It's a parental perspective, but you don't have to be a parent to have it, nor do you have to have that perspective even if you are a parent. Also, and this is not aimed at QT, just a general rule of thumb: it's not smart to dismiss anyone's perspective out of hand if you don't have said perspective. Perhaps have a think about why someone arrives at that conclusion instead.

Whether or not this the right way to depict an adolescent's struggle is certainly debateable, as the length of thread shows. Of course, it's not the only way but they chose to show it like this. So are they trying to connect with their teen girl audience and what is it they are saying to said teen girl audience, of which my own daughter is a part? I had lots more questions to mull over, but I'm editing an already long post down (!) and that one is the most important one for me. Whether they should or should not show a thing isn't the point, more what are they saying in the first place?

So I still have to finalise some thinking on this. Without playing the content myself of course, it's a little harder to make an actual critique, so I'm still very much on the periphery with the broad strokes from what the rest of you are saying. In QT_Melon's theory, which I think is most likely (indeed the first two concepts are the conclusions I arrived at last night, though I wondered if I was being generous or not) and certainly how I'd present this to my daughter should this raid come up, I don't think I have a problem with it per se, but the execution is clearly important. A part of me wonders if this hasn't been presented in a clear-cut manner so as to leave some worrisome doubt over the intention of the content and this is perhaps our real issue? If this is the case, then I would echo OP's sentiments to SE to have a care when implementing content like this - leave no room for doubt over your intentions when presenting a potentially thorny bit of content. Consider many teen girls, particularly today with social media, have anxiety and stress over body image and their place in the world - indeed my own daughter has already, thankfully, voiced her heart-felt concerns over simply being a girl with these problems and that's why we talk very openly and honestly about things like this, even if I know I'm not privy to everything she thinks; the fears and hopes of teens are great for discussion but you must be concise and thoughtful in how you depict them.

[Friske]

I'm sorry, but in terms of puberty, it pretty much ends around 15-17 years of age for women. We just mature faster physically. Mental maturity is a different matter and that's around 25 according to studies regarding our brains.

But in terms of video game characters, this gets a little more ridiculous to argue about given the limitations of the assets they're producing. Meaning the time they're working on the game, they're not gonna update her 3D model to show growth very well. I mean if anything I can see some kind of time shennanigans pop up and at some point if we end up meeting Ryne again in the future she would have fully grown. As it stands now I'm not sure why the mental exercise over a few years here or there for a fictional teen on the brink of womanhood.

I don't find the scene sexually exploiting her, but rather her coming of age. Thancred and Urianger will be leaving The First, so that means she's going to have to grow up at some point. This is why I felt the choice was fair for Ryne to be Shiva, each phase is showing a psyche of womanhood. I don't think it would have carried over symbolically if it were someone else. It makes us uncomfortable because we eventually have to see her as a woman, and not a child to protect. We're not ready for it literally, and figuratively I suppose. Phase 1 playing at an adult, 2 overwhelmed at becoming one, Phase 3 (Savage) eventually bonding with someone you love.

I absolutely love that comparison. The themes of growth and advancement, of overcoming new challenges, of modifying current relationships as the character progresses into adulthood is fairly represented in literature, movies etc. so I can see where you're going with that. A popular children's book series for example, Harry Potter, has him develop through several stages of his life with each subsequent book dealing with more complex issues. What's common is the battle with maturity, and with that, among other things, is the understanding and development of their own sexuality, and the new relationships that they'll form to accommodate that. When Ryne transformed into Shiva, It was almost like losing control to the uncertainty of adulthood that represents her future. I'm not too sure myself, but I do find what you said fascinating.

[linay]

Apologies, the term I was looking for is hebephilia. Even if she was 15 or 16, it's still gross and weird.

Why is it gross and weird for adolescents who have gone through puberty to show sexual features?

Regardless, the scene has nothing to do with our character having sexual attraction toward her, so you can feel gross and weird about something you think it implies, but it still has nothing to do with the scene itself.

[Reinha]

Why is it gross and weird for adolescents who have gone through puberty to show sexual features?

Because a girl maturing into a woman is shameful and something to be hidden, of course.

[AmeliaVerves]

Because a girl maturing into a woman is shameful and something to be hidden, of course.

yikes. 2real2fast.