The Lost City of Amdaphor and the Sineaters

[MrThinker]

As mentioned in my second post, yes. But, again, it cuts both ways:

Ah right, I somehow completely skipped over that part.

[Vulcwen]

What makse you say this was "heavy astral corruption" and not simply sacrificing people to bring voidsent essences through the veil, as we've seen before, from the Lambs of Dalamud to Haukke Manor?

What helps us say this is definitely not voidpact / sacrifice stuff of the Lady Amandine sort? I can't find the words "astral" and "corruption" used in the same sentence, even.

The clues to it being astral corruption aren't in the tank arc as much, but rather the 5.1 MSQ. Beq Luuq was involved in the plague.
I indeed should not have phrased it as a definite statement, it was indeed not definitely stated to be the case. There are implications in it both being called a plague, thus an affliction by something, and Beq Luuq's regrets over the tonic that stimulates the body.
In any case, it's not a strong analogy, so apologies for that.

You are also right that the game specifically speaks of Light corruption rather than Umbral, as things were explained on the First. I went with the Source's terms. The point still stands that we know that Light corruption creates sin eaters. We don't know if this is possible on the Source without assuming that aether works the same on the different worlds, and whether enough Light can be present/isolated on the source to create sin eaters. The analogy to the plague was something to back up that assumption, but it's not solid enough to work for that.

[JeanneOrnitier]

It's also possible that another Shard besides the First is experiencing Umbral corruption, in the same way both the Thirteenth and the world that was rejoined with Bahamut's calamity both were Astral floods. The sin eaters that Amdapor saw could have come from there.

[Anonymoose]

Looking at the other languages for their choices of words and explanations for "soulcraft" and "tonic" and "plague":

We know he worked with "enhancement magicks" and made a "life-force activating tonic" which worked on "corporeal aether" (not spiritual aether) to help the knights of Voeburt fight. We know Tadric abused it in his research and ultimately caused people to transform into monsters of a visage we associate with voidsent.

Is he using the tonic on them or over-charge them, or is he using it on himself to make his magicks strong enough to do it? We don't see him handing out bottles during the fight. I wonder what the transformation attack is called, lol. During the fight he just refers to "my magicks", and French highlights that there's "no saving the transformed." In all languages he uses phrases like, "I have so many left to sacrifice." And then there's that they constantly comment on the immensity of the aetherial energy he's able to weave into his magicks - and most basic magical incantations are wrought from corporeal aether wellsprings.

Tadric
Admirez comme mon pouvoir peut transfigurer un vulgaire pion!
Admire how my power can transfigure a vulgar pawn!

Tadric
Durch meine Kraft werden nutzlose Opfer zu mächtigen Waffen!
Through my strength, useless victims become powerful weapons!

I'm still looking. I wonder what his attacks were named...

EDIT: The attack that changes people is called "Monstrosity." This turns people into: Vodoriga, Mindflayer, Hecteyes, Arch Demons, Hellhounds, and ... whatever Hodric Poisontongue really became, lol. German calls this "Hex." French calls it "Transformation into Monster." Japanese calls it ... "Demonic Conversion" which isn't entirely conclusive because it's using the term 魔物 which is applied primarily but not exclusively to voidsent.

[LineageRazor]

However Voidsent are created, we know that Sin Eaters can result from overexposure to Umbral Aether. It's not out of the question to suspect that Sin Eaters could be created through experimentation, rather than solely being found on worlds in the process of Flooding. In combat against Mhach's plainly Dark summons, they could well have experimented with concentrated Light aether, even if they eventually went with Golems instead.

Another possibility that I don't think has been mentioned: Eden 4 mentions that Ice Aether is extremely similar in nature to Umbral Aether. Perhaps Sin Eaters were common in the final days of the Shard that fell to Ice? If so, some of them slipping through to the Source could have been the inspiration the Amdapooi found.

[Nightsword]

It could be pre-sundering memories that the Amdapori tapped into. Many Voidsent are seen to have existed in the end times as Terminus monsters. It's quite possible that there were Terminus Sineaters, Therion could be an example. It's also worth noting the Holy Cow from Pagos shows that Angelic Sineater like beings can exist on worlds besides the First.

[Anonymoose]

I just want to pop in and stress again that "umbral aether" and "Light" are not the same thing and debating under that premise closes a gap within which important nuances might or might not lie. In the transcripts and game materials that I've read/saved/remember so far: Number of times explicitly umbral aether / umbral energies are mentioned in the same breath as sin eaters: 0

Alisaie
...A colossal wave of pure Light, drowning everything in its wake. Only Norvrandt was spared.
For the most part, living things are composed of aether of various different aspects.
But when exposed to such a flood, their aetheric harmony is shattered, and their natural form breaks down.
Then they either perish...or are warped into mindless abominations.
Yes, that's how the sin eaters came to be. They were once living creatures─or people─that were caught in the path of the Flood.
Once the change is wrought, there is no going back. In that instant, they are gripped by an insatiable appetite for aether, and will happily gorge themselves on any living thing within reach.
But even that is not the worst of it. The stronger sin eaters can plant Light in us like seeds in soil, corrupting our aether, and triggering the birth of new monstrosities.

[Kalise]

I just want to pop in and stress again that "umbral aether" and "Light" are not the same thing and debating under that premise closes a gap within which important nuances might or might not lie. In the transcripts and game materials that I've read/saved/remember so far: Number of times explicitly umbral aether / umbral energies are mentioned in the same breath as sin eaters: 0

Might want to pop back and check the explanation Urianger gave in Il Mheg in front of the MTG chart.

I'm fairly sure he mentions that the "Light" is Umbral Aether (While having slightly more authority on the matter being more of a scholar than Alisaie)

It's in the cutscene when you first meet up with him (Alas, due to that, I cannot easily bring up the transcript)

[Anonymoose]

Might want to pop back and check the explanation Urianger gave in Il Mheg in front of the MTG chart

I can grab the transcript, no worries there!

What Urianger stresses is that elemental aether can be pulled by proximity to Light or Darkness to give it a polarized charge. When an element has been charged, we say that element is astral or umbral. There is astral fire, there is umbral fire, there are elemental mixes that can become "astral energy" or "umbral energies". However, "astral" and "umbral" aether/energies are elemental, as in part of the elemental energy spectrum, and the charges of the elements solely arise due to proximity to Light/Darkness.

An element with an umbral charge is not identical to Light, the force which caused that charge.
The elements and Light/Darkness, strictly speaking, aren't even on the same energy spectrum.

That's why you can't have a "Calamity of Light", but a calamity of umbral elemental energies caused by Light.

It's the whole basis of his explanation: Eorzea named the charges and misattributed their causes. The First focused entirely on the causes and skipped considering "astral" and "umbral" as independent things in the first place.

Urianger

Dost thou recognize yonder chart?

Indeed. 'Tis a rendering of the elemental wheel, such as one might find in classrooms across the Source.

As the chart maketh plain, our world is composed of six elements, in addition to which there exist two poles in fundamental opposition.

Astral, the active; umbral, the passive.

As a reflection of the Source, the First naturally compriseth the selfsame forces, yet curiously, there is a notable divergence in their nomenclature. To be specific, the denizens of this world employ not the terms astral and umbral.

Thus was I moved to inquire what names said forces had been assigned. A simple question which yielded a most unexpected answer...

Upon demanding the name of the pole aligned with activity and growth, I was told that as life's myriad colors combine to produce black, the people of the First had called it “Darkness.” At this did my mind begin to race.

Yet 'twas only when I asked what name had been given to the pole aligned with passivity that mine eyes were opened to the truth. Peace and tranquility being as purest white unmarred by color, I was told, it had been given the name of “Light.”

Thancred

That's umbral light and astral darkness, yes? ...I'm no aetherologist, but it strikes me that the nomenclature of the First is rooted in the generation of the two forces, while our own appears to focus on their effects. Which makes one wonder...have we had it backwards all this time?

Urianger

'Tis indeed a compelling question, and one which beareth closer examination. Yet what knowledge we already possess sufficeth to explain the chain of events.

The phenomenon of aetheric thinning observed in the Source is the consequence of Light─the power of stasis─flowing in from the First to stifle the movement of aether within the land.

And according to Master Alphinaud, Black Rose slayeth by halting the circulation of aether within living beings.

Should such a weapon be unleashed even as the First were rejoined, replete as it is with Light...

Thancred

...We would have a disaster of untold proportions on our hands. A calamity.

Well...at least we have a better grasp of what we're facing. Our objective, however, remains unchanged.

You can see the deliberate separation of ideas when it's important to the plot.

Urianger
And therefore the true nature of the Flood of Light?

Ryne
Yes. It affected the balance of all of the aether in the Empty, shifting it so far towards the umbral that it stopped flowing altogether.

And perhaps more useful, it was confirmed by loremaster Banri Oda through Metatron Koji Fox

Gamer Escape:
Once upon a time, the only binary in the game was [astral & umbral]. These polarities existed in all things, and seemed to be part of the six elements rather than independent forces. Since A Realm Reborn, a second binary exists: [Light & Darkness]. As one might expect, NPCs don’t seem very well informed about these concepts, using phrases like “void energy” and “umbral energy” and “Dark energy”. As time went on, we even started to see Dark and Light sprites! Can you help us understand the boundaries for these concepts? Are they in any way related?

Koji Fox
So, you have the elements—and it’s still six elements, there are no newly-discovered ones. Those elements have charges—umbral and astral. If something has “umbral energy”, it is one or more of those elements, individual or combined. So if elements have an umbral charge, it can be said that they are “umbral energies”. That’s where those terms come from, “astral energies” and “umbral energies” are not individual things, it’s a blanket term. Light and Dark are not elements, but they are energies…in a different sense. They are not elements, they are not of the elements, and they are not astral or umbral. It’s a different type of energy. You might see a Light and Dark sprite and think, oh, they must be elemetals, but those are made of an entirely different form of energy.

[LineageRazor]

*gigasnip*

The problem is, that while Koji goes into a lot of detail about what Light and Darkness are not, he doesn't dwell much on what they ARE. They're a different kind of energy - but what does that even mean?

In the meantime, the game seems to be going out of its way to associate Light with Umbral and Darkness with Astral, lately. The Flood of Darkness wasn't devastating to the Thirteenth because it was suffusing the world with darkness energy. It was bad because it was suffusing the world with Astral polarity. And yet, it is not called the Flood of Astral, but the Flood of Darkness. Too much Darkness is bad, because everything goes Umbral. Ditto in reverse for the Flood of Light.

By a similar token, Ascians are all about the chaos, the Astral, and yet everything they do is darkness, darkness, darkness...

If Light and Darkness are meant to be independent from Umbral and Astral, the game hasn't done a great job of demonstrating this! Even when you consider "polarizing" existing elements - from what we've seen the further toward either pole the elements go, the closer they get to Light or Dark in coloration - hence the swirling darkness of the Void and the barren whiteness of the Empty.