It's time (Option to Hide other players Glamour)

[Krotoan]

Yes, the part of your own computer that isn’t running the intellectual property of a company you have access to through a subscription that is contingent on agreement to a TOS.
True.

Arguing against something that currently isn't part of the game because right now it isn't in the game isn't a great counter. The TOS forbids outside modification of game files, if this option was implemented it would be well within TOS.

[Krotoan]

Sorta? When you claim immersion, and don't take part of the full story of the game.

So you get to define what "full story" is then? If I didn't read every derivative work of the Star Wars expanded universe am I not "immersing myself" enough? Because I choose which story i want to read?

That claim comes from a lack of info from what the world sets.

So, I am dictating for using flawed logic and not having enough info to make said claims.

The logic is that the experience we wish to have doesn't include the content specifically separated to allow choice of experience. I've said this before but every player is playing on the same server but there are thousands of different versions of the game being played in peoples heads.

[Kohl]

Arguing against something that currently isn't part of the game because right now it isn't in the game isn't a great counter. The TOS forbids outside modification of game files, if this option was implemented it would be well within TOS.

Yeah, I pretty much phoned that one in.

[Joven]

On this topic I have already admitted that there was a time that I would have wanted this option too (years ago), but I my mind HAS changed on the topic and I find that it was a change in the correct direction. But yes, if someone could actually make a good argument, I would totally reconsider my stance. I am sure you feel similarly to some degree.

There is no "correct" way to view this, only subjective opinions. That's why we have these discussions, to try and find a common middle ground.

The developers are exercising the rights of their company in controlling their intellectual property in slowly moving towards the developers idea of unlocking gender restrictions from gear so as to not so quickly offend people who have a problem with that. If they chose to adopt a "regressive" feature because of demand, that isn't really expressing their own expression as it takes away from their resources to continue the story of their game and game world.

I don't if I am answering your questions in a satisfactory way, but I am trying. Thank you for answering my question.

It wasn't the developers idea to unlock gender restrictions, it was a vocal section of the community harassing them and calling them things like "regressive" and "bigoted" that caused them to start. If it was their idea all along then there wouldn't have been a restriction on the gear in the first place.

[Jadedsins]

So you get to define what "full story" is then? If I didn't read every derivative work of the Star Wars expanded universe am I not "immersing myself" enough? Because I choose which story i want to read?


The logic is that the experience we wish to have doesn't include the content specifically separated to allow choice of experience. I've said this before but every player is playing on the same server but there are thousands of different versions of the game being played in peoples heads.

So how can you make a immersion claim as your reason, because you pick to ignore the rest of the story because it is optional? That is not how it works, your rights to ignore it and to warp the story to what only you pick to do does not mean that you can make claim to immersion, when you don't have the overall picture of the world,and stories in it.



Your choice is to ignore the lore, and by having immersion breaking problems. That choice has become a problem for you.

[CelestePinke]

Remember the fight with Grand Companies? SE didn't care about my glamour and I had to do the fight in normal tank armor. Ugly, non pink tank gear. They can already filter it.

[Kobalos]

Both are pretty boring to look at, in my opinion. I've found that quite often the players most eager to show off their characters tend to design them in a way that just isn't conventionally attractive at all. Just tacky.

Eh, live and let live I say. I man both Fran and Kuja wore revealing and rather ridiculous outfits not like its anything new in FF. But aye I am deffo a fan of the more thought out glam rather then the skimpy ones but I wouldn't go as far and wanting to hide how other characters look. OP is entitled to their opinion but I do think folks are being a little silly about the whole thing. The only issue I have with blokes wearing dresses is that the bridesmaids dress is hideous it looks awful on anyone XD

[Packetdancer]

Don't stop, I enjoy reading your posts even if it takes you some times to get out!

I aspire to at least be engaging and/or amusing in my posts, whether or not folks agree with my position.

And failing that, I'll just be really, really verbose.

I know you are being fair to Zabuza and what he said, but let me ask you. If someone only takes part in one element of the game and ignore the rest of the world. How can they make the claim of immersion, if they don't immersive themselves in the game fully?

I think there's a difference between immersion and thematic, which is what I was trying to get at there.

The argument folks were making originally was that "you never see things like that in the story", which is false; that argument suggests it's unthematic (i.e. has no place in the game world), but there are demonstrable canon instances of it. And though the Il Mheg side quests, pixie Beast Tribe quests, and so on aren't part of the main scenario, they're definitely still part of the overall story.

I agree entirely that without actually familiarizing yourself with all the corners of the game world, you can't say for certain if something is thematic, because it might have happened in a corner of the game that you haven't seen.

But immersion is different. Immersion is your ability to... well, immerse yourself in a story. And it's possible for even the story itself to destroy your immersion; think of those times where you've been watching a TV show and you come across an episode that's badly written. You find yourself thinking, "No, there's no way Jane would've stolen that plane, she would've stayed behind to disarm the bomb that was in the animal shelter!" or "Xilithos has been actively repulsed by mammalian 'courtship rituals' for three seasons, why would he suddenly want to sign up for a speed dating session in the ship's lounge?" or whatever.

Now you can no longer just sit back and enjoy the story, because your brain is gnawing on that thought; your immersion has been jarred.

And immersion is inherently subjective. Several years back, I watched a movie about King Arthur with a friend; both of us have a bit of a hobbyist interest in Arthurian myth and the evidence for what actual historical events might have inspired those tales. This movie made a big fuss with text at the front of the movie about how it was going to tell the real story of Arthur, reconstructed from what historical basis had been found.

And then the first scene literally opened with someone walking up to another guy and addressing him as Lancelot.

(For those who are unaware, Lancelot is a 12th century French addition to the Arthurian mythos, created—so far as anyone can tell, anyway—by the poet Chrétien de Troyes.)

We both made a sort of outraged strangled gurgling noise. Having thrown that out at us right after making a huge fuss about being 'historically accurate', any hope of our having been immersed in the story was broken; now we found ourselves leaning forward on my couch almost involuntarily cataloging all the myriad places it got even known bits of likely Arthurian history wrong. And normal history. (Did they get the bridles right on the horses? That costume's totally not period! Etc.)

One line—just one line—was enough to shatter our immersion, even though someone else might've sailed through without objection.

So: someone saying that their immersion is ruined by an outfit? I can't counter that; immersion is wholly subjective. But people saying their immersion is ruined specifically because an outfit is unthematic—that it's not appropriate to this game, or the Final Fantasy franchise as a whole—is a different matter; at that point, you're pointing to a fact, which can be objectively right or wrong. And in that case, maybe showing folks that it isn't unthematic—that the movie or TV show or book or game has the offending element in it already in some other place—actually removes their objection; it has genuinely happened before.

Person A: "Ugh, there's no reason that Frederick should have a magic sword that looks like a katana in a fantasy setting based on Western lore. That's unthematic and it breaks my immersion in this book!"

Person B: "No, see, Fred was Sir Netherferd's squire, right? Back before Netherferd got eaten by the Ravenous Ferns of Borinth two books ago, I mean. There's this whole set of side stories about when Sir Netherferd was younger, and a point where he traveled the world to try to find the ultimate swordfighter to learn from. He spent two whole years in Fuxia, which is based on a sort of pan-Asian cultural fusion, and his teacher there gifted him a sword. And in another story it was enchanted by Bonk, the greatest wizard of all the ogres, in gratitude for Netherferd finding his lost cat. And Sir Netherferd left the sword to Frederick in his will, so after he was eaten by the ferns..."

Person A: "Ooooh. Okay, that fits! I'm a little annoyed that's only referenced in the side-stories, though."

Person B: "Yeah, there's a pretty huge amount of lore you only find in those."

Fred's sword broke immersion, but it wasn't unthematic. And in that case, demonstrating it actually is thematic restores immersion! (See also: 73.6% of all conversations I have with people involving Star Wars. I am always Person B in such conversations. Though for some inexplicable reason, most of my friends won't debate what is or isn't thematic in Star Wars with me anymore; they just blindly take my word on things...)

In all seriousness, for me, those outfits don't break immersion though they do annoy me a little bit when they show up in serious cutscenes. But based on what replies came up after I listed the squadron NPCs et al, it seems in this case it won't restore immersion for various folks; it's not actually about thematic or not, but about whether they think it's appropriate in tone.

And that's a wholly subjective measurement; we can no more dictate someone's position on that than they can ours.

[Kohl]

There is no "correct" way to view this, only subjective opinions. That's why we have these discussions, to try and find a common middle ground.



It wasn't the developers idea to unlock gender restrictions, it was a vocal section of the community harassing them and calling them things like "regressive" and "bigoted" that caused them to start. If it was their idea all along then there wouldn't have been a restriction on the gear in the first place.

I’ll just share this again: "... I was heading to the office on a Saturday and I saw a situation that made me very sad. I was trying to go into the office and I was waiting at a red light. I saw a high schooler coming from the other side of the road in their school uniform. It seemed that they were biologically male at birth but they were wearing a sailor fuku, which is traditionally female attire. In Japanese high schools, there’s more and more schools that are accommodating for freedom of not being restricted to a specific gender for your uniform...That person probably wanted to present the gender they identified with in their heart...On the other side of the road was a mother and a daughter. The daughter was perhaps 5 years old. As soon as the mother saw the high schooler, she shielded her daughter as if she didn’t want her daughter to see. The high schooler must have been very hurt. Situations like these still happen and there’s areas where there’s not as much understanding.

We need to see more change in the values people have, and we need to consider for Final Fantasy XIV how we push forward in-game and how we represent it."
-Naoki Yoshida (interviewed by Heather Alexandra)

Seems like Yoshida is down for the unlocking...

[Krotoan]

So how can you make a immersion claim as your reason, because you pick to ignore the rest of the story because it is optional? That is not how it works, your rights to ignore it and to warp the story to what only you pick to do does not mean that you can make claim to immersion, when you don't have the overall picture of the world,and stories in it.

I immerse myself in the story I've created and undesirable glams yank me out of my own story. You are now effectively gatekeeping the FFXIV experience. You are no more of a "true fan" than I am or "More immersed" if you play ALL content than the casual who plays once a week and ONLY does MSQ.

Your choice is to ignore the lore, and by having immersion breaking problems. That choice has become a problem for you.

My choice is to play the game and engage in the parts I enjoy. I am encouraged to customize and protect that experience with all the options given to me so that I may enjoy the game on my own terms. Telling someone that their immersion argument doesn't hold water is telling them they do not know the story THEY MADE UP enough. People claim immersion problems because their internal narrative of the WoL gets broken by other players choices, not that it's particularly out of line with the FF universe (which lets not kid ourselves involves everything from chibi versions of every hero stacking on top of each other to fight to cartoonishly misproportioned bird things in pajama like armor suits) but it's out of line with the world the player has chosen to create to explain their character. Immersion isn't about adhering to canon, it's how well you can detach from reality and live your imaginary story.