So...is the Ranged Role gone? Are we in a Reverse HW?

[Karshan]

I think Myon88 perfectly said it : there is a glass ceiling and that's what I speak against.

So I was thinking of the following :
- option 1 : raise the glass ceiling by buffing it a bit (or reducing the "tax")
- option 2 : design fights more like Alphascape and less like Eden, so that melee have forced downtime while "ranged tax" isn't actually paid in vain (or you could call it : actually don't cut off melee "downtime tax" like you did in Eden leading them to have 1k+ DPS)
- option 3 (that I didn't thought of, thanks a lot Myon for that insight) : give range a way to go further if played very well. That way it can be easy peasy classes with low damage or hard to play classes with damage on par.

I only enclined towards option 1 because option 2 is really hazardous :
- hard to implement, require to be very careful in each fight design that for instance, the forced downtime doesn't happen during melees burst, ever, or ther stuff like that. Given what they usually do, I'd fear for melee which is not the point of this change.
- no matter how you put it, having to disengage for melee is not fun (and not just because of dropping numbers but because of gameplay, I hear ForteNightshade and perfectly remember hello world and panto 2)

But I honestly didn't think of option 3 and I'm finding it really elegant and more thought out than option 1. Although, as Myon said, they're moving away from it and the chances of going back there are slim.

[HyperiusUltima]

Can someone please explain why this is a bad thing?
"Physical ranged no longer have a monopoly over a slot, so you can literally bring any ranged jobs you like, and I don't like that."

In my statement I didn't say it was a bad thing; also, I never argued over a monopoly of a slot: What I argued was that there is a disparity that needs to be addressed so as to become closer to a more balanced venue than the giant gap we have now.

[Lastelli]

But I honestly didn't think of option 3 and I'm finding it really elegant and more thought out than option 1. Although, as Myon said, they're moving away from it and the chances of going back there are slim.

Tbh I think option 2 would be way easier and interesting to implement. You'd just need a couple of mechanics per fight with forced downtime for the melee and a lot of movement. Option 3 would require to rework ranged dps rotations, because currently there's literally nothing in their rotation to differentiate between skilled and mediocre players (this is particularly true for MCH).

[Adventica6]

there's literally nothing in their rotation to differentiate between skilled and mediocre players (this is particularly true for MCH).

Same could be said for floor tanker.

[Lastelli]

Same could be said for floor tanker.

Is that a reference to my main class? I suggest you check my fflogs page.

And while yes, all dps jobs are pretty easy now, ranged dps are in general the easiest to play and optimize.

[Aiscence]

Tbh I think option 2 would be way easier and interesting to implement. You'd just need a couple of mechanics per fight with forced downtime for the melee and a lot of movement. Option 3 would require to rework ranged dps rotations, because currently there's literally nothing in their rotation to differentiate between skilled and mediocre players (this is particularly true for MCH).

I mean, compared to melee having one opener, a fixed rotation, etc. you should know ranged are harder to optimize? You probably play them by habit and dont realize it anymore. if you just look at mch, there's 5 different opener depending of your team comp, knowing the length of your turret to be sure of optimize its duration under buffs (ninja/vs no ninja, not using the easy "just do it at 80"), always have to check your drill/AA duration to know if you can land an HC, big braining to keep 50 to WF if you arent using the easy BStab strat just to gain one more HC use on a fight. it's a whole lot more optimisation that in the end, doesnt reward a lot for the amount of things you actually have to think about, compared to other jobs.

in the end, that's a whole lot more than most jobs ever have to care about, you can ask most melee main and they'll be like "lol melee actually being hard", it's just a matter of being used to the job so no, ranged arent as easy as what people think it is to optimize them and you probably had to be more wary of things as a dancer on TEA that you would ever be as a melee.

[Kabooa]

I mean, compared to melee having one opener, a fixed rotation, etc. you should know ranged are harder to optimize?

Every job has its challenges.

[ForteNightshade]

Tbh I think option 2 would be way easier and interesting to implement. You'd just need a couple of mechanics per fight with forced downtime for the melee and a lot of movement. Option 3 would require to rework ranged dps rotations, because currently there's literally nothing in their rotation to differentiate between skilled and mediocre players (this is particularly true for MCH).

How would that be easier than simply increasing the Range's damage? Take what they have now and throw 500-800 more rDPS on them. Bam, you're pretty much done. There is nothing interesting about mechanics that force downtime for melee or tanks. Lemme tell you, Hello, World 2 without uptime strats was not fun. I got to sit on a marker and do absolutely nothing—to the point I was legit happy whenever we wiped on those pulls. Titan is similar but for tanks. Things like the second mini-boss in Copied Factory or even E1S where you can potentially mitigate the GCD loss if you time it just right are fun. But just being forced to disengage for x amount of time unless people catering a strat specifically around you, isn't.

I also don't like it because I essentially have to make things harder on my group if I want to parse well. At least in certain fights where the uptime strats are either riskier or involve taking more damage.

[Lastelli]

I mean, compared to melee having one opener, a fixed rotation, etc. you should know ranged are harder to optimize?

You talk as if it wasn't the same for ranged dps. MCH in particular has a pretty fixed rotation with some slight possible deviations because their resources can be used flexibly. But this flexibility makes the job easier and more convenient, not harder. You can even let drill and anchor drift as long as you don't miss uses and nothing changes in terms of potency per second. FFlogs data also tell us that compared to other jobs, the difference between the median dps and higher percentiles is much lower for MCH. With a few reasonable assumptions, this tells us that the role of optimization is smaller (=good play is less rewarded).

How would that be easier than simply increasing the Range's damage? Take what they have now and throw 500-800 more rDPS on them. Bam, you're pretty much done. There is nothing interesting about mechanics that force downtime for melee or tanks. Lemme tell you, Hello, World 2 without uptime strats was not fun. I got to sit on a marker and do absolutely nothing—to the point I was legit happy whenever we wiped on those pulls.

If you just buff potencies, you raise dps across the board and you're not giving anything to reward good play. You're rewarding mediocre players as well, which defeats the whole purpose.

[MPNZ]

Okay, I already like commented on like a change that would help RPDPS, but I need to like answer the topic because this totally bugs me.

No the role is not gone but being able to keep a distance by playing keep away is definitely much more limited than before, and is definitely not like a reverse HW. Everything was just stripped down to the necessary and made hyper-consistent to like a detriment in several cases, and like the usual number of jobs left totally messed-up like AST and some jobs becoming totallly op because of their simple design (BLM, WHM, PLD) or just by being WAR