Thank you Yoshi for your stance on DPS meters

[DynnDiablos]

The thing is that people talk about different stuff and are not always making clear what they mean.

For the story and dungeons, noone cares how much dps you do. Literally noone. And whoever does has some bigger issues so you want to stay away from these people anyways.
But most of the players that want a parser want it for Ex primals, savage and ultimate content. Content that has enrage timers and require the party to meet a minimum amount of skill. For primals you arguably don't need it bc the enrage is easy to meet and you can carry 'weaker' players, but obviously it's comfier to have everyone perform with a decent amount of skill/dps.
Especially in savage and ultimate you want to hold everyone in the group accountable for their performance and not carry some 'dead weight' through hard content.

While I understand what your saying, even for EX, Savage and Ultimate the game still isn't designed to take into account an outside Damage Meter and analyzing numbers. It truly comes down to mechanics. Once gain, PC players use outside parcers for these fights and have created their own set of standards, but FINAL FANTASY XIV has not done so. The only harder fights I do are EX trials simply for the clears. I do them once, call it a day. I make sure to watch videos, follow the mechanics, I've never once been kicked out or called out or told to get bent because of DPS numbers even though I am sure my logs aren't optimal (I've hidden them moving forward since some people decided to look them up and say some pretty awful things to me).

At the end of the day, this is a game. While I understand there are people who play solely for the challenging content, the game itself wasn't designed around taking these outside programs into account. PC players are more than welcome to create their own set of standards, but they can't be upset with the SIGNIFICANT portion of players who are basically playing the game as the game has taught them to.

[Wegente]

While I understand what your saying, even for EX, Savage and Ultimate the game still isn't designed to take into account an outside Damage Meter and analyzing numbers. It truly comes down to mechanics.

DPS checks are one kind of mechanic and playing your class properly and optimally is the way to overcome that mechanic.

If a set of adds spawn in an encounter and you have to defeat them before they blow up and wipe the group, you need to know your optimal AoE rotation in order to get rid of them quickly enough. If multiple members in the group are unable to do so, you will wipe over and over.
That's when damage meters come into play. You need to be able to tell which players are currently underperforming and let them know so that they can adjust their rotation accordingly, or replace them if you see they can't adjust. Otherwise, you will never clear the encounter with that group.

[DynnDiablos]

DPS checks are one kind of mechanic and playing your class properly and optimally is the way to overcome that mechanic.

If a set of adds spawn in an encounter and you have to defeat them before they blow up and wipe the group, you need to know your optimal AoE rotation in order to get rid of them quickly enough. If multiple members in the group are unable to do so, you will wipe over and over.
That's when damage meters come into play. You need to be able to tell which players are currently underperforming and let them know so that they can adjust their rotation accordingly, or replace them if you see they can't adjust. Otherwise, you will never clear the encounter with that group.

Then the game should have been designed that way, but it isn't. So you can't fault players who believe following the game and how it has been presented. I absolutely understand DPS check mechanics, and if you are passing them that is all that should matter. The issue is PC players who parse want things to go at their pace. If they look at someone's numbers and think they are moving things to slow, they want to call them out for it. Speed shouldn't be an issue if the content is being cleared and mechanics are being followed.

The fact of the matter is if you want to use an outside parcer and utilize it to check DPS and create the picture-perfect clear group, you need to form that group in discord and find people all willing to use these programs or people willing to be analyzed. You can't expect console players who don't use these tools and MOST don't care about them, to bend to your will.

You said you want a damage meter to check other players and be able to call them out and make them adjust. That is why these will never be implemented because at the end of the day, it is not your responsibility to tell people how they are performing. The game should be doing that for them. It truly is none of your business in the end.

**I would also like to mention, when I form a Savage learning party in PF, I make sure to dictate no one will be judged for their performance and it is open to all willing to learn mechanics. I highly allude to the fact outside apps are not welcome nor is your input. And guess what? We have a really good time without that stress of thinking someone is analyzing our every move. **

[Wegente]

You said you want a damage meter to check other players and be able to call them out and make them adjust. That is why these will never be implemented, because at the end of the day, it is not your responsibility to tell people how they are performing. The game should be doing that for them. It truly is none of your business in the end.

It becomes my business when we wipe on a certain encounter over and over because of DPS checks or enrage timings.

I don't care if an expert roulette takes 40 minutes to complete, as long as mobs die and we don't wipe. But once I see the healer die mutiple times on the final boss because he can't execute the mechanics and make us wipe, I will leave the dungeon myself, because I don't want to waste my entire evening there. It's just not fun for me at that point.

Hard encounters like Savage and Ultimate raids require optimal play in order to be cleared.
That's why we should be able to replace people who can't execute mechanics or who don't know how to play their class properly in that kind of content. Because otherwise, one person is holding seven other people back and wasting their time. It doesn't seem right to me.

If I were to go and play soccer with a professional team, I would be an hindrance for them and they would have every right in the world to ask me to leave, because I don't belong there. I just don't get why the same logic can't be applied to this game.

[DynnDiablos]

It becomes my business when we wipe on a certain encounter over and over because of DPS checks or enrage timings.

I don't care if an expert roulette takes 40 minutes to complete, as long as mobs die and we don't wipe. But once I see the healer die mutiple times on the final boss because he can't execute the mechanics and make us wipe, I will leave the dungeon myself, because I don't want to waste my entire evening there. It's just not fun for me at that point.

Hard encounters like Savage and Ultimate raids require optimal play in order to be cleared.
That's why we should be able to replace people who can't execute mechanics or who don't know how to play their class properly in that kind of content. Because otherwise, one person is holding seven other people back and wasting their time. It doesn't seem right to me.

If I were to go and play soccer with a professional team, I would be an hindrance for them and they would have every right in the world to ask me to leave, because I don't belong there. I just don't get why the same logic can't be applied to this game.

Then you need to make your requirements known in PF or create a privately. I would have much more respect for someone stating as a disclaimer, I check DPS and if you are under-performing I rather not play with you off the bat, then later saying you are awful, get out. Then I am going to want to report them for utilizing outside applications to judge my performance.

At the end of the day, this isn't a professional team. It is a GAME. It is meant to be FUN. Even Savage and Ultimate content. And the game does NOT implement damage meters as a requirement. These are things YOU have utilized to create a threshold of good vs bad. We could argue this back and forth all day, but in the end, the game isn't designed to take these applications into account. Period. Done. Therefore, if you want picture-perfect runs and people performing at the level you've deemed necessary, take it to PF or discord and make your requirements crystal-freaking-clear.

[AmeliaVerves]

If I were to go and play soccer with a professional team, I would be an hindrance for them and they would have every right in the world to ask me to leave, because I don't belong there. I just don't get why the same logic can't be applied to this game.

That's not just for professional teams. Imagine joining a hobby succer club, but during the match you stand idle or just do the bare minimum. Ofc your team would be highly unpleased, especially when all of them gave their best to win.
Now that's a hobby and a game as well, but still the team tries to do their best. The same should be the way to go for FF, at least for savage and ultimate, imo.

[AmeliaVerves]

It truly comes down to mechanics.

I agree with the sentiment that dps is highly unimportant for everything below ex difficulty and to an extent for ex primals.
But I highly disagree on ultimate. I assume you have never stepped foot into any ultimate fight, which is perfectly fine and fair, but do believe me when I say: Executing the mechanics is. not. enough. You have to actually find ways to play mechanics AND maximize dps output. One could argue that you don't need parsers to figure that out, but you definetly need them to come up with max dps rotations in the first place, so indirectly you still need them.


I totally get people don't care about their dps or are not interested in optimizing after a certain point and are fine with being comfortable with their rotation. That's fair and cool and I think everyone should play the way the want to. This is a themepark MMO so by all means: don't let anyone tell you what to do with your time. But I find it sad that we cannot get to an agreement where at least a personal parser, or a group parser that needs agreement before being enabled for high difficulty content could be implemented to give those of us who WANT to optimize and play this certain way the chance to do so as well.

[DynnDiablos]

I agree with the sentiment that dps is highly unimportant for everything below ex difficulty and to an extent for ex primals.
But I highly disagree on ultimate. I assume you have never stepped foot into any ultimate fight, which is perfectly fine and fair, but do believe me when I say: Executing the mechanics is. not. enough. You have to actually find ways to play mechanics AND maximize dps output. One could argue that you don't need parsers to figure that out, but you definetly need them to come up with max dps rotations in the first place, so indirectly you still need them.


I totally get people don't care about their dps or are not interested in optimizing after a certain point and are fine with being comfortable with their rotation. That's fair and cool and I think everyone should play the way the want to. This is a themepark MMO so by all means: don't let anyone tell you what to do with your time. But I find it sad that we cannot get to an agreement where at least a personal parser, or a group parser that needs agreement before being enabled for high difficulty content could be implemented to give those of us who WANT to optimize and play this certain way the chance to do so as well.

If it were something EVERYONE had to agree to before implementing sure. And if you have someone not interested then they know this isn't the party for them. You are right, I haven't stepped foot into an Ultimate fight nor would I ever want to. I play this game to relieve stress not create it. I would be an absolute wreck just from the emotional torment I would endure in such a fight. As for EX and Savage. I have cleared these fights knowing mechanics and keeping up and watching the videos. Sure there were some wipes, but never solely because of me (or it could of been, who knows I've never been told).

The fact is though in the end, even if they added an official group parser, people would still abuse it. It would be nice if everyone would agree to it, but at the end of the day, some would use it to judge other people anyway. Ultimately, I would say the Savage and Ultimate player-base who takes things super seriously is rather small compared to the people who play strictly for fun, story, socialization and glams. I can understand why this group wants to take ownership of this harder endgame content. But in the end, Yoshi isn't going to lock it away behind parcer requirements. Therefore, it is up to players creating parties to be VERY clear about what they want.

Some people treat this game like a profession, they strive to improve, and become the best of the best. However, many, like myself, play for fun with other focus. Honestly, if this game didn't have the story and crafting/gathering/housing I wouldn't even bother. I do the dungeons, raids for the clear, story and could care less about the rest.

[AmeliaVerves]

I can understand why this group wants to take ownership of this harder endgame content.

We don't want to take ownership or lock content for anyone tho, we just want to make sure people know what is asked of them when trying to compete in this hard content.
Actually there is a whole discord server and community dedicated to SHARE their information to everyone who just clicks the button to join. The Balance discord and therefore most of the community is welcoming and actually encouraging newcomers and everyone who wants to learn and improve.
Also everyone can do this in their own pace, nothing is asked of you, but to be nice and polite.

Some people treat this game like a profession, they strive to improve, and become the best of the best. However, many, like myself, play for fun with other focus. Honestly, if this game didn't have the story and crafting/gathering/housing I wouldn't even bother. I do the dungeons, raids for the clear, story and could care less about the rest.

As I said before: that's fair and I encourage it, but I also think it would be fair to give those people in the game that want to become the best the ingame utilities to do so.
Regarding the harrassment that is mentioned all the time: people calling you out in a rude manner should still be reported, basically nothing would change imo. Someone being rude because you are not doing so well? Report them, they should receive a (temp) ban.
If someone just neutrally speaks up about your performance you can either ignore them or take the advice, that's the decision to make and everyone can do as they please.

[DynnDiablos]

We don't want to take ownership or lock content for anyone tho, we just want to make sure people know what is asked of them when trying to compete in this hard content.
Actually there is a whole discord server and community dedicated to SHARE their information to everyone who just clicks the button to join. The Balance discord and therefore most of the community is welcoming and actually encouraging newcomers and everyone who wants to learn and improve.
Also everyone can do this in their own pace, nothing is asked of you, but to be nice and polite.



As I said before: that's fair and I encourage it, but I also think it would be fair to give those people in the game that want to become the best the ingame utilities to do so.
Regarding the harrassment that is mentioned all the time: people calling you out in a rude manner should still be reported, basically nothing would change imo. Someone being rude because you are not doing so well? Report them, they should receive a (temp) ban.
If someone just neutrally speaks up about your performance you can either ignore them or take the advice, that's the decision to make and everyone can do as they please.

Then what is asked and expected of players needs to fundamentally change. Savage and Extreme should be completely redesigned and content restricted in a way to cater to these needs, because how they are designed now...it isn't requiring what people who are parsing are asking for.

I get it goes beyond mechanics and placement. There are DPS thresholds and various checks that need to be completed (honestly I've never had an issue with EX-trials so this must really be for Savage and Ultimate), but the game itself isn't saying these numbers are what is important. Raid teams, PC players have created these requirements themselves and what is deemed needed for smooth completion. Therefore, as I said, you can't expect things from players who are just playing the game the way it is presented.

We are being told we have the ilvl to enter Savage or Ultimate. We are given the option to say we have never cleared it before. These are all the checks and balances the game provides. That is it. So at the end of the day, players will need to be very clear and strict in the parties they create for it or have to understand casual players will be wanting to do this content and aren't going to take kindly to being criticized because people are viewing applications they have no access to.