Can we get choices that really matter and have a effect?

[linay]

Look, I don't mind stories about good and evil, but the writers are clearly trying to go the moral relativist route to some degree here. Good and evil are simplistic, reductive and dismissive labels if used outside of absolute morality situations.

No, it's not. Defining good and evil is the basis of morality.

In the end, FFXIV is a game where you will beat the enemy, and if the enemy ends up being spared/justified in the story because of moral relativism, then that would just make for a poor story in my opinion. So far, I don't think FFXIV has gone that route, and I hope they never do.

Based on your arguments, you also might be confusing moral nihilism with relativism?

I don't think I am. I am speaking of the idea that you recognize that other people may have different moral viewpoints and then try to limit the application of your own moral viewpoint so as to not impose on theirs. That idea is what I reject.

If I am opposing someone because that person is doing something that I think is wrong, then it is irrelevant if they think they're doing something right because they have a different moral worldview/circumstances unless they can convince me to adopt their moral worldview or they can convince me that they are not doing what I think they're doing.

If that's not what you mean by moral relativism, then please explain.

Moral nihilism, to me, seems to be about rejecting all moral values because there is no meaning to any of it in the end. I would also disagree with it, and do think moral relativism is one step closer to nihilism, but that's not what I was discussing specifically.

[LolitaBansheeMeru]

I made this to make a point that choice is to open up to all view points not one of basic morality...

Just because society or 1000s or even millions or billions of people might agree with the moral choices not everyone does and thats why I made this because i believe choices satisfy everyone and not enforce a singler morality belive. Yes the ones I made examples of I truely believe are morality right and has done nothing wrong thats my opinion. If you don't like that you can shove it but thats my true opinion it has nothign to do with age or whatever other nonsense its my own experience and emotion that makes me side with those characters I don't put the opinions to be called names and what other else nonsense I was trying to make a serious point of choices never cause harm to the story in the fact it helps it...

But I'm done I'm just done I'm so tired of self rightous jerks casting judgement on a opinion because the masses can't understand it. I'll just write my own story and one day learn to make a private server that I can put a real in depth story that doesn't force their morality on others.

I have been nothing but nice,kind respectfull even when stating my opinions and views on examples of characters this is why i hate socializing with people can't share any thing or example without dealing with bs.. but sure i'm the w/e you want to call me because I don't submit to the masses view point and morality scale.

I'm done sharing my opinions and views or even socializing with people I'll just write my characters story and share it and throw out all the lore that my character views has incorrect and wrong like Emet-set and make my own story with my character and turn it into whatever you call it fanfiction or whatever. I'm done with this topic hate me or not idc everyone does anyways whenever I try to seriousely make a point or share my morality and view points.

[DrWho2010]

sorry your echo chamber didn't end up what you thought it would be.

[lolicon09]

I've been reading this thread and responses so far but this one...

I lost my mother 2 years ago this Feburary 15. That's right as of me posting this its 4 days until the second anniversary of my mother's death. She was wasnt even 63 years old and died of congestive heart failure. Do I empathize with Emet on his losses? Yes I do. Would I go about destroying lives just to bring my loved ones back who have died? HELL NO! The ends do NOT justify the means in this Scenario nor did Hydaelyn kill people to split the world into the Source with 13 shards. Life is still life weither the memories are completely intact or not. It's like saying that someone who has amnesia is dead or even people suffering from an illness such as dementia or Alzheimer are no longer living.

To be fair, yours is not the correct comparison. Your mother was a human, just like you and everyone else. Emet, and all His people are/were not. You may not like the idea of killing living beings from your same race to bring her back to life, but you sure'll consider It if those were the lives of lower beings, like rats (to give an example). Also, he did lose pretty much all his people, not only the ones who gave their lives to their god, but also the ones shattered by mom crystal

[Edax]

To be fair, yours is not the correct comparison. Your mother was a human, just like you and everyone else. Emet, and all His people are/were not. You may not like the idea of killing living beings from your same race to bring her back to life, but you sure'll consider It if those were the lives of lower beings, like rats (to give an example). Also, he did lose pretty much all his people, not only the ones who gave their lives to their god, but also the ones shattered by mom crystal

That would be like the equivalent of a Miqo'te slaughtering all the other races simply because their different and that Miqo'te stood to benefit from their demise. It's obviously immoral.

[DPZ2]

Also, he did lose pretty much all his people, not only the ones who gave their lives to their god, but also the ones shattered by mom crystal

The poor helpless god-like Ancients tried everything to stem the Chaos descending upon their best of all possible worlds, even going so far as to willingly sacrifice themselves in order to bring back Order to that Chaos by summoning ... Zodiark.

If that were the extent of things, I'd agree that the poor helpless god-like Ancients dodged a bullet and life goes on.

But then, a bunch of the poor helpless god-like Ancients who survived the Chaos got the great idea that they should sacrifice everything else that wasn't a poor helpless god-like Ancient to their 'god' in order to bring back those who sacrificed themselves in the first place. Who could have told them that this new sacrifice would be enough?

Could it have been ... Zodiark!?! Would Zodiark possibly mislead those poor helpless god-like Ancients? We know that the Ascians certainly have done so, and they created Zodiark in the first place.

Some portion of the poor helpless god-like Ancients decided this wasn't a good thing. They sacrificed themselves to call out another god, Hydaelyn, to prevent the sacrifice of every life that wasn't a poor helpless god-like Ancient.

There was a battle, and Zodiark was defeated and imprisoned. We don't know if it was Hydaelyn who shattered the world into shards, or Zodiark's last desperate attempt at winning the battle that did it. We do know that Hydaelyn has been picking up the pieces ever since.

And the poor helpless god-like Ancients, now calling themselves Ascians, who survived have been trying again and again to to undo their initial "noble sacrifice" for the sake of a suspect god named Zodiark.

[Rannie]

To be fair, yours is not the correct comparison. Your mother was a human, just like you and everyone else. Emet, and all His people are/were not. You may not like the idea of killing living beings from your same race to bring her back to life, but you sure'll consider It if those were the lives of lower beings, like rats (to give an example). Also, he did lose pretty much all his people, not only the ones who gave their lives to their god, but also the ones shattered by mom crystal

And if you re read what I wrote I did not specify human lives to be destroyed to bring my mother back I said lives meaning any sort of life for that matter.

[MrThinker]

There was a battle, and Zodiark was defeated and imprisoned. We don't know if it was Hydaelyn who shattered the world into shards, or Zodiark's last desperate attempt at winning the battle that did it. We do know that Hydaelyn has been picking up the pieces ever since.

While I can appreciate the point you are making overall, for this part alone, I believe it is explicit that the Sundering of the star was because of Hydaelyn. Whether it was:
(a) a deliberate move on her (and her creators) part to prevent another Final Days;
(b) a known risk for the ultimate goal of binding Zodiark or;
(c) an unintended side effect due to Zodiark's link to the star
is up to debate. Eldibus's monologue gives the impression of (a), while the account of the sundering given through the Word of the mother gives impressions of (b) or (c)

[Packetdancer]

But I'm done I'm just done I'm so tired of self rightous jerks casting judgement on a opinion because the masses can't understand it. I'll just write my own story and one day learn to make a private server that I can put a real in depth story that doesn't force their morality on others.

I mean, literally everything else about this discussion aside... the simple truth is that it is not technologically feasible to make an MMO that supports even two wildly divergent stories, much less a whole slew more. If you lose in ARR or deliberately side with the Garleans, then you're never even in a position to be at a certain banquet just before Heavensward. And the story diverges further and further from there. You certainly wouldn't be helping to free Ala Mhigo or Doma from Garlean rule in Stormblood!

You can do games where you have multiple factions (see WoW, for instance, or DAoC) but even then they have to share the same actual world state and overall story. If you let players also play Garleans, then for the Scions to win in ARR the Garleans still have to lose.

It's when the world state diverges—if you get to choose whether to let Emet-Selch win or lose—then how the heck do you go forward from that? Do they have to make two entirely separate 6.0 expansions? One where you go back to fight the Garleans on the Source, and one where the Source has been destroyed and you wander off to some other shard to help the Ascians destroy it as well? Moreover, players wouldn't really be able to share the same servers, because if there were dungeons/raids set in Garlemald in hero!6.0 there'd be no rational way for people to run them in villain!6.0.

You would, in effect, be making two entirely separate MMOs. And you'd have to do that again every time there was a point of divergence. So then you're making five separate MMOs. Fourteen. Sixty-five. Etc.

Even if people agreed with the premise, even if the devs liked the idea, the simple truth is it is not practical for SquareEnix to do it. They have to tell one story. And if they can only tell one story, clearly the one they want to tell is about moving past pain and trauma rather than letting it control and rule you. And similarly, if there can only be one story, the one where you fall and become the villain is clearly not the one the majority of FFXIV players want, either. Witness this thread.

[Packetdancer]

To add to this (thaaaank you, forum 3000 character post limit)...

If this is really your passion in storytelling, really the story you want to tell in a game, then it honestly may be that this is not the game for you. Clearly you are unhappy with the story and the game, and the truth is the game is not going to change to suit your desires in the story. I hope you find the game that does suit you and which you can enjoy.

FWIW, though, making a private server for an existing MMO as you mention does not generally allow you to significantly change the storyline, because the dialogue and cutscenes and whatnot are all part of the client. And unless you have the source code for the client, duplicating that side of things is far more difficult than reverse engineering the servers. If you really want a divergent storyline, you'll do far better to start your own game company and make an MMO.

And if that's the path you choose to follow... more power to you! Make the game you want to play, one where there's no good or evil, just differing shades of gray and horrible choices to be made. It could be interesting, and maybe there's a lot of other folks who would like it!

I'm genuinely not being facetious or sarcastic here; the beauty of the world is that there's always space for someone else to try telling another story of their own. (Whether or not various other people like that story is a different matter, of course.)

Good luck, either way, and I hope you find the game you're looking for out there.