Thank you Yoshi for your stance on DPS meters

[Stanelis]

You're right. They do lead to toxicity, and I am thrilled that you and the team are adamant about keeping a meter out of the game. Thank you for your stalwart position on this matter.

What leads to toxicity isn't the parser (that will exist in the game nonetheless) but the over reliance of the game on DPS.

You 're a healer ? You need to DPS.
You re a tank ? You need to DPS.

Everything is about DPS at endgame. It is the pinnacle of hypocrisy to design the game that way but forbid the use of parsers (yet alone not implementing one in the game). Back in 2.X, where the meta was far less about DPS than it is currently, there wasn't such a commotion about it. However, today, I can understand why people ask for parsers and I don't think any group of serious people about endgame (especially ultimate fights) will actually come and say they don't use parsers or third party website to study what happened during the fight.

Its also what leads to the schism between people who play the game to simply collect a few glamours, run the 24 players raid, 4 men dungeons, etc and people who partake in 8 player content. They simply don't share the same vision. Because in one part of the game you need to push for DPS, while in the other the game tells you its ok not to be very good at it. And it is what is transcribed here : some people don't see the point of parsers because they don't need it on the content they run, while some ask for it because it is needed in one part of the game.

[Penthea]

What leads to toxicity isn't the parser (that will exist in the game nonetheless) but the over reliance of the game on DPS.

You 're a healer ? You need to DPS.
You re a tank ? You need to DPS.

Everything is about DPS at endgame. It is the pinnacle of hypocrisy to design the game that way but forbid the use of parsers (yet alone not implementing one in the game). Back in 2.X, where the meta was far less about DPS than it is currently, there wasn't such a commotion about it. However, today, I can understand why people ask for parsers.

What leads to toxicity is players being unable to give and take criticism sensibly and respectfully. It just happens with dps most often because it's one of the major requirements to complete content, and players can be competitive. I have seen similar toxicity happen in WoW with healing meters, long ago when healer dps hit like a wet noodle so it was an utter waste of mana.

[Stanelis]

What leads to toxicity is players being unable to give and take criticism sensibly and respectfully. It just happens with dps most often because it's one of the major requirements to complete content, and players can be competitive. I have seen similar toxicity happen in WoW with healing meters, long ago when healer dps hit like a wet noodle so it was an utter waste of mana.

It's not one of the major requirement. It IS the major requirement in how FFXIV's encounter are designed. The only interaction with the boss is through DPS in the current design (one only needs to look at how the GNB is designed..). All mechanics are only hoops placed on your way to prevent you from DPSing.

[Penthea]

It's not one of the major requirement. It IS the major requirement in how FFXIV's encounter are designed. The only interaction with the boss is through DPS in the current design (one only needs to look at how the GNB is designed..). All mechanics are only hoops placed on your way to prevent you from DPSing.

So what you're saying is in addition to dps doing the mechanics properly is a requirement. Glad we agree.

[Thamorian]

That has never been an issue with me. I main DNC, I am full augmented, I know my rotation, I usually blast my fellow DPS out of the water. What I am saying is it is no one's business to comment on how I play or to judge me based on their little program they are running.

If you are as good as you say you are, well, thats good then. If anything, some people may be like "Hey Sylvi, your DPS was really good! That's awesome!" Would you report someone for that. There have certainly been times where I want to compliment someone's DPS but can't because talking with DPS meters is a no-no. But on the opposite side, if I see someone doing really poor on their DPS, if I have the time, I'll ask them if they want help with their rotation and if they say yes, I'll take the time to explain how their job plays. If I don't have the time but I see something I can quickly comment on for them to approve, I'll be like "Hey player, for RDM, you don't want to hard cast VerAero/VerThunder, you are supposed to cast those after casting Jolt/VerStone/VerFire since those are 2 second casts and give you the ability to instant cast your next spell" or "For large mob pulls, you'll want to cast VerAero 2/VerThunder 2 then Scatter and just keep repeating that. Doing that is 120 potency x 8 enemies for 960 potency total so it's a lot stronger overall."

I don't know how well you actually perform. I see on a certain site that there are a couple logs listed for you but thats not enough information to come to a conclusion, they could just be bad runs where you are otherwise normally a lot better. Everyone gets those sort of bad runs. But there's a lot of people in this game who think they have awesome DPS and if someone tries to let them know they have a lot of room for improvement, their response is "You don't pay mysub!" They just think they're the bees knees. If someone is happy with their performance, well then there is nothing that can be taught to them as they just won't listen or don't care. These sort of people really could do with installing a DPS meter themself and seeing just how bad they are performing when compared to others. If after seeing their own performance, they are still happy with how they perform, well, more power to them I guess?

(For one of your later posts since you deleted it while I was still typing) Yeah who we get in DF is who we get. Doesn't mean I can't try and kick the lazy ones, and I mean the ones who just aren't doing anything, going afk, only using one button after being told a basic rotation for their job (see example above), or not using a key component of their kit after being asked to but refusing to or ignoring other party members. I might even try to kick the toxic "You don't pay my sub!" players.

Not that long ago I was in a dungeon and I noticed getting to the first boss took way to long, long like we were missing a DPS. I was watching the DPS and seeing what they were doing. First DPS was fine, looked to be doing everything correctly from what I could tell. Other DPS, I noticed the Ninja didn't have Huton on so I watched them a bit closer. Don't know what they were doing but it didn't look like they were playing ninja. In a polite way, right after killing the first boss, I asked them if they could use huton and let them know why they should. They just never responded back to my advice. They may or may not of been doing a 123 combo, I don't remember that part. After asking them immediately after killing the first boss to getting to the 2nd boss and they still refused to acknowledge my advice and not having huton on at all and the pull still being slow, I initiated a vote kick and it went through, with both other party members agreeing in chat afterwards. Would it have mattered if I used a DPS meter here to tell the ninja was doing extremely poorly, with only pulling, for example (cause I don't know actual numbers) 1.5k DPS, being equivalent to auto-attacks only (making up numbers here). Should the party carry this person just because they came in through DF?

What if I join a group for current extreme trial through party finder as a DPS and the party leader is, knowingly or unknowingly to me, running a DPS meter. What if I can do all the mechanics properly and not die once but my DPS is 3k whether it's due to my gear or my not playing my job properly when the low end average is 8k DPS. 8k is pretty easy to get and most people can get this with Allagan Tomestone of Goetia gear (or even the ilvl 430 relic gear and ilvl 430 accessories from first lvl 80 dungeon)and knowing basics of their jobs and press all their buttons, and I really do mean just a basic understanding of them job. Should the party put up with me and carry me? Should the party disband because the they aren't allowed to kick you based on my DPS number? EX Trial boss keeps hitting enrage at 8% health and party leader can see I am performing far below everyone else including tanks and healer, I am essentially dead weight. Seems unfair to me they have to treat me as if I was pulling my weight, even in this world of participation trophies.

And this part is for anyone and everyone, don't be afraid to take constructive criticism. It's human nature to overestimate your abilities and Dunning-Kruger Effect is a real thing. First step is to recognize and accept that you may not be as good as you think you and realize there is always ways to improve.

[Thamorian]

So what you're saying is in addition to dps doing the mechanics properly is a requirement. Glad we agree.

Not who you are responding to but I'll respond for them. I don't see anyone disagreeing that doing mechanics is a requirement. In Extreme Trials/Savage raids/etc, if you don't do mechanics properly, you die, If you die, you are doing zero DPS. If you get rezzed, you got resurrection sickness and doing less damage. Don't do enough damage, you hit enrage. But at the same time, even if you do all mechanics properly and don't die at all, if your overall party DPS is still to low, you will still hit enrage and wipe. It's not fun spending several hours on the same fight only to keep wiping and/or keep hitting enrage. End game content is designed so that tanks and healers also need to contribute as much as they can to DPSing.

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Separate comment: Honestly, how many people have run into toxic people you know were using a DPS parser? Forums acts like it's a widespread issue when it's not. Same with toxic mentors. Both are not a widespread issue in FF14. In other MMOs, sure, but not so much in FF14.

[Anienai]

Separate comment: Honestly, how many people have run into toxic people you know were using a DPS parser? Forums acts like it's a widespread issue when it's not. Same with toxic mentors. Both are not a widespread issue in FF14. In other MMOs, sure, but not so much in FF14.

You should give Twitch a visit and watch the chat channel when someone is doing low dps. It only takes a viewer or 6 sending /tells to trigger a person.

[Angus-Beef]

Separate comment: Honestly, how many people have run into toxic people you know were using a DPS parser? Forums acts like it's a widespread issue when it's not. Same with toxic mentors. Both are not a widespread issue in FF14. In other MMOs, sure, but not so much in FF14.

Honestly, I RARELY run into anyone talking about parsing in FFs community, I PF a lot in my spare time, I run dungeons, Its rare to see people talking about 3rd party anything........I think a lot of people on FF are a little too busy on twitter and the forums over the actual game itself. And even in the case you do meet someone outright breaking the ToS and admitting to it in game.......You can...report them? Like literally if they admit to Parsing you and calling to bad, they literally earned a 10 day, the GMs who deal with player Harassment respond in like 10-20 min max, and they investigate after you give your side of the situation, you can even provide pics.

Its a bit baffling to see people talk so much about toxic players, but as someone who prefers to report over argue, I know from experience that GMs are very quick to reply and fix any harassment based situation, from PF to Alliance raids, to roulettes. If you're not reporting an obvious jerk whos breaking ToS to shame you, you're part of this *massive* issue we're apparently dealing with.

And to the OP, You missed Yoshi Ps point, its not about Meters, its about cheaters, those who move markers with a program over learning how to do it manually, and those who give the proteans in TEA Telegraphs(they're not supposed to have any) Those are the people who hes speaking on, the Plug ins to ACT he doesnt agree with.

That being said, the average player who cares about improving ones self doesn't speak on their parser.

All in All, if YOU(the people who will read this) have a problem with people parsing/not parsing, make your own FC/LS/Community/Discord server with people who have similar mindsets and keep it to yourself. Does that solve the problem now?

[SieyaM]

A lot of people want to have parsers at the ready for Savage and EX content and thats fine, DPS really is important there and the people who do that can use the third party tool. As it is though we already have too many stories of people being parsed and harassed in not even level cap content. With a parser in game these kinds of things will be even worse, at least now someone has to make the effort to install and set up a third party tool to obtain the data. I don't know what kind of state the GMs are in but as it is housing and other complaints are not getting a response quickly and most of the time they are half hearted. So expecting the GMs to pick up on the rate they respond to and act on harassment complaints might be more than they are willing to do.

[Thamorian]

You should give Twitch a visit and watch the chat channel when someone is doing low dps. It only takes a viewer or 6 sending /tells to trigger a person.

Ok, thats twitch though, even if they are streaming FF14, thats still not in game where you see if. If you never see or hear it, does it matter? If a tree falls in the woods and no is around, does it make a sound? By far the vast majority of interactions in game are either neutral or polite. If someone does send a nasty /tell to you in game, you can always report it. I don't watch twitch streams, so I would have to ask, how common is harassment /tells from twitch viewers? I know there was that one banned person recently because they were talking crap about someone's DPS with a DPS meter on their stream but thats first time I've heard of something like that happening since I started playing 7 years ago and I play A LOT.