Thank you Yoshi for your stance on DPS meters

[linay]

You can't blame the tool or entertainment for human behavior. The tools don't make a person behave diffrently than they normally would. The cold truth of it those people who are being called "toxic" would always behave that way rather they use a tool or not just like anyone who is violent is violent because thats who they are not because a "tool" or entertainment made them do it. People do what they want to do stop blaming innocent tools,objects,drinks etc for human natural behavior

It's less about blaming tools and more about regulating what people can/should do with certain tools. Whether or not tools can make people behave in a certain way, they can certainly facilitate those behaviors.

[Early_Lily]

Ive wondered about a solution since i started last year. The devs must have an idea of what DPS each class can do, either at low level play, mid level play or high level play

EG: A NIN in 460 gear might do the following (Im pulling numbers outside my backside here)
Low level: 9k
Mid Level: 11k
High level: 13k

We have the training system where you can practice for days rotation and such, and they're somewhat linked to the trials if i recall correctly? Why not have it a requirement to do say Hades EX is you have to clear it in this practice mode thing first as a kind of proof you know your rotation?

[Shurrikhan]

It's less about blaming tools and more about regulating what people can/should do with certain tools. Whether or not tools can make people behave in a certain way, they can certainly facilitate those behaviors.

But they don't?

When things go wrong, people check their existing information for the cause or causes for either of two reasons: (1) they feel they've been somehow cheated (e.g. someone did not meet the practical prerequisites to the fight or is purposely neglecting their tasks) or (2) they simply want to complete the content they've signed up for. You can call the first a more negative or defensive reaction to the situation, sure, but it's far from unwarranted.

The level of information each player possesses does not curb the conflict that will arise when things go wrong, nor the behavior occurring once that conflict incurs. Being aware of a failure triggers that conflict, not merely being aware of the causes for that failure. At that point, information only resolves the conflict more quickly and with fewer tangential factors (such as (1) how noticeable one player's mistakes were compared to others', based on (2) how much party members think they know about the jobs that have potentially made a mistake, (3) the visibility of their responsibilities, (4) how much time and attention others had to watch those mistakes unfold).

Note that there are other issues that make these conflict resolutions worse but no slower, such as how mistaken those players are in evaluating visual tells or how skewed their observations were in the first place.

Hiding a problem doesn't make it go away. Nor does resolving a inevitable conflict more quickly (and in a fairer, more informed manner) suddenly make a conflict where none would previously have existed. It's just a more informed decision that allows steps to be taken against the existing problem rather than against everyone.

Any group with even minimal awareness of enrage requirements isn't going to quit out of a fight uniquely because their parsers tell them the raid's doing about half the necessary damage; the amount of time spent thus far and the boss's %HP being only half as far drained as it should be does that just fine.

[Liam_Harper]

I feel one of the problems is that their focus seems to be on a tool they think might create toxicity, rather than the individuals who are toxic. The game is quite toxic. We have Trusts so players can avoid PF because it can be so toxic to newcomers. We have our "tales of the Duty Finder" thread with thousands of cases of awful behaviour. New players are told to avoid Novice Network. In a lot of cases this goes unpunished.

There are many claims here that you don't need a parser to evaluate performance. In a similar way, you don't need one to behave badly either. It doesn't even aid or facilitate it, being rude or toxic requires no tools. Do we honestly think a troll in a dungeon thinks to himself "I really want to abuse this group, but I can't see figures on their damage, guess I'd better stay quiet and be nice". Or that normal people are like "hey I'm a super nice calm guy, but I can see this BLM has low damage, I'll turn into a raving monster instead of offering friendly help".

It gives the message that abuse is fine as long as you don't go bonkers or mention third party. The message should be that abuse is not fine at all.

We have the training system where you can practice for days rotation and such, and they're somewhat linked to the trials if i recall correctly? Why not have it a requirement to do say Hades EX is you have to clear it in this practice mode thing first as a kind of proof you know your rotation?

The issue with these is people who think they're much better than they are will complain they're overtuned when they can't steamroll it in minimum ilv, no melds, poor stats, bad weapon, no consumables. Look at SSS for example, many claim that's overtuned, yet every class has beaten it with time left on the clock with a little effort gearing.

I'd be all for a SSS requirement you can set on your premade PF. Similar to ilv or Duty Complete requirements, you need SSS for that duty beaten on that class to join the group. Simple and fair enough.

[Ashpd]

Welp, first off - that game dont have toxic players. Its not toxic at all, just people start to take thing close to their hearts, so we even cant say where and why they bad.
Second - after all that, you even dont need to try give hints or etc in PF/DF - people just started cry. Yesterday i'm calmly say to SCH in my party why its bad to use Physick (E3S party), and why he need to replace it with other spells. He start being very tilted, wipe raid and leave party.
If we just throw away act, those type of players find another way to cry for defense they poor gamestyle and ignorance.
Problem not in people who use act, problem not in ppl who bad - problem only in ppl, who bad and wanna cry about "elitist etc" after all.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

What exactly is so good about blocking off resources and not giving us an alternative?
It's just like blocking chat in Feast. The communication and planning with pugs is gone, and it's made the mode worse than the occasional asshole cursing in chat.

All blocking ACT would do is deny players who want the chance to improve. Sure, there may be a few assholes using parse numbers to be toxic, but the vast majority only care what their personal numbers are. And if you're failing a DPS check over and over again, wouldn't you want to correct the issue? I don't get how Yoshi can sit there and talk down on ACT and not give us anything else to guage our DPS (SSS is overtuned and horrible).

[QT_Melon]

I feel one of the problems is that their focus seems to be on a tool they think might create toxicity, rather than the individuals who are toxic.

It's a bit more than that. It's also a cultural thing like I mentioned before. While other countries like to talk to a player (and usually in a way that involves bickering) the JP playerbase just generally apologizes for their mistake and the group often comforts the player. They move on. If the performance is not going well regardless if it's a tank/healer/dps not performing. They still congratulate people for trying and disband.


In the case of exceptionally (though I'm not entirely sure what their standard is met when they decide that) bad players due to their culture, JP players have a board like 2ch (which is a third party they really have no authority over it) and will name those players. They go out of their way to shame the person including doxxing (revealing address and personal info) making sure that person is isolated from the game by targeting others that may talk with that player and doing the same, They hope that person basically NEVER logs in again or worse commits suicide because of cultural demands and pride.

There was a recent case of this happening to a player which I think SE handled horribly but I digress...

That's not something other the NA/EU player base would necessarily understand and grasp.

I did state earlier as well since people were hyperfocused on DPS, I asked should the meter then be ONLY for DPS, which there wasn't a really good answer, because it's entirely possible that the DPS could be doing the expected damage but it's the TANK (or healer - but they generally have more levity towards whether or not a healer should DPS to begin with). is not doing the optimal rotation and is causing a chunk of damage to be lost. People will blame the wrong thing if it's only for DPS.


Yes, Yoshi P isn't stupid and KNOWS that for the raiding scene ACT is useful, but if you are in a culture where that kind of pressure is baked in you're going to be more sensitive to how toxic it is versus a culture that engages in more bickering but at the end of the day considers harassment minor - and don't go out of their way for the most part to get someone to kill themselves over performance of a game. Like I said earlier the Koike incident that came up in game was a harsh reminder for Yoshi P on how scary that conflict can get for JP. https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...arser/ddxxeua/

So do you release a copy of a JP game without an official parse?

I think people misinterpret me for being against parsing and getting better at performance due to how incredibly snarky/negative the replies have received. I'm actually not, but it's the way those replies are being made is why I SEE why we're never gonna get a parser.

[Payadopa]

That's what you get when the first 50 levels (and beyond that, let's be real here) are a giant tutorial (that doesn't teach you anything apart from you don't need proper gear).

Other than that, I support Yoshi's position.

[Mahrze]

snip

Ah, the infamous Koike incident. A stand out incident, but not the only victim.

[QT_Melon]

Ah, the infamous Koike incident. A stand out incident, but not the only victim.

Exactly. It's just the most well documented one. Easy to point to. Like I said earlier there was a recent incident of harassment that was terrible to witness, and I'm not happy with SE's treatment of it.