5.0 Dark knight request: Delirium rework

[Falar]

I still miss Dark Dance. That was one of a million skills we lost going from Heavensward to Stormblood.

Now that Anticipation is gone as a role skill we could potentially get it back hopefully with the ability to evade and parry magic attacks this time.

[Shurrikhan]

I would pay that price for some other fixes.

Ahh, but our gameplay is fine, remember? That's why we have so many players... Surely DRK, of all jobs, wouldn't need anything to compensate for TBN. It's not like a quarter of all DRKs play DRK just for TBN, after all.

.....

[ArianeEwah]

When you press sheltron/rampart/hos/anything [...]

Nothing you said there counters my arguments.
Yours and Lucy_Pyres problem/misconception here is, you actually are looking at TBN in a vacuum instead of looking at the full toolkit, or the practical use.

I've looked up some Voidwalker runs for WARs and DRKs to compare their healing here. The highest HPS DRK has 2970 HPS, the highest HPS WAR has 2588 HPS without Shake it off. But there is a catch, this particular DRK didn't break - at the very least - 7 TBN, probably even more (I guess 12 based on the buff duration / 29 TBN vs 22 EoD used [~37 possible]). That's a 3500-6000 potency loss!
If we ignore those failed breaks from the overall HPS we end up with 2520-2194 HPS on DRK. That is lower than the WARs' one. TBN may have proven as a strong mitigation tool, but in this case it caused a huge DPS loss.
This actually shows how flawed TBN is.

On top of that DRK also has an access to many different mitigations.

Eh, if you hit a non-magical fight, you acutally end up with less mitigation than the other tank jobs. You should know that.

But you dont use nascent flash all the time, dont you or you do? [...]

If you use it every ~30s you'll have the highest HPS possible, ideally every single one paired with Upheaval.
If your healer heals you directly after a hit and don't let the tank handle it, it's on the healer not trusting the tank. But why would you waste GCD heals? Or are you concerned about oGCD heals, too? Why tho?
Explain your problem here! In every single one of your posts you state that healers lose DPS uptime by healing the tank. You speak of the worst possible pug situtations, and those are irrelevant to actual balance, nor can we treat them as the norm.
Just like the Benediction into Superbolide situtations. They happen, so is Superbolide a sh*tty skill because of this? No, ofc not!

TBN is a strong mitigation tool, but it's still a flawed tool!
It's fine in dungeon pulls and ultimates, maybe even trails and savage on minimum item level. But more often than not, we end up asking ourselves if we should actually use it instead of "just do it". Yet, for good reasons.

snip

Refer to the practical Voidwalker run above, case closed.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Refer to the practical Voidwalker run above, case closed.

Case not closed. Like I said before, at its maximum potential Nascent is more powerful than TBN, this is true. However, the factor that makes TBN overall stronger than Nascent is when you factor in TBN's potential uptime and then compare it to how often Warrior is able to heal 37k+ HP from NF (as 37k is the amount of shielding TBN grants on a BiS tank). Since NF heals for 50% of damage dealt during, in order to heal 37k+ HP you need to deal a minimum of 74k damage during the 6 second window. This simply isn't possible if all you have available for NF is your basic 1-2-3 weaponskills at the given time during which you need to use it. You need at a minimum to use a Fell Cleave + Upheaval (not during IR) or an Inner Chaos charge in order to have NF's healing be comparable to the eHP that TBN's shielding gives you, and as Upheaval is on a strict 30 second CD which you keep rolling at all times, and Infuriate charges are primarily held for burst windows with raid buffs, this is often simply not possible to do. In other words; yes, if you need to use NF during IR or at a point where you can blow two Infuriate's on it, its healing is significantly more powerful than that of which TBN's shielding can offer (the rough maximum I have healed from dummy testing was around 75k HP healed from 2x IC, 1x IR FC, 1x IR Upheaval, and two auto attacks). However, over the entire course of a fight TBN will total out to a greater amount of eHP due to its uptime and its consistent level of mitigation, whereas NF's mitigation value and eHP fluctuates based upon your damage output at any given moment.

[DRKoftheAzure]

Case not closed. Like I said before, at its maximum potential Nascent is more powerful than TBN, this is true. However, the factor that makes TBN overall stronger than Nascent is when you factor in TBN's potential uptime and then compare it to how often Warrior is able to heal 37k+ HP from NF (as 37k is the amount of shielding TBN grants on a BiS tank). Since NF heals for 50% of damage dealt during, in order to heal 37k+ HP you need to deal a minimum of 74k damage during the 6 second window. This simply isn't possible if all you have available for NF is your basic 1-2-3 weaponskills at the given time during which you need to use it. You need at a minimum to use a Fell Cleave + Upheaval (not during IR) or an Inner Chaos charge in order to have NF's healing be comparable to the eHP that TBN's shielding gives you, and as Upheaval is on a strict 30 second CD which you keep rolling at all times, and Infuriate charges are primarily held for burst windows with raid buffs, this is often simply not possible to do. In other words; yes, if you need to use NF during IR or at a point where you can blow two Infuriate's on it, its healing is significantly more powerful than that of which TBN's shielding can offer (the rough maximum I have healed from dummy testing was around 75k HP healed from 2x IC, 1x IR FC, 1x IR Upheaval, and two auto attacks). However, over the entire course of a fight TBN will total out to a greater amount of eHP due to its uptime and its consistent level of mitigation, whereas NF's mitigation value and eHP fluctuates based upon your damage output at any given moment.

Except Nascent Flash isn't a high chance of DPS loss like The Blackest Night...

[Lucy_Pyre]

Except Nascent Flash isn't a high chance of DPS loss like The Blackest Night...

The only time TBN is a "high" chance of losing DPS is if you are blantantly using it incorrectly. Which, if you're doing, is entirely a you problem. The only times I don't have TBN break, even in dungeons on my DRK who massively overgears the content, is when I misuse it. Sorry to break it to ya.

[DRKoftheAzure]

The only time TBN is a "high" chance of losing DPS is if you are blantantly using it incorrectly. Which, if you're doing, is entirely a you problem. The only times I don't have TBN break, even in dungeons on my DRK who massively overgears the content, is when I misuse it. Sorry to break it to ya.

Then you are probably standing in things that you shouldn't be standing in because you are trying to get it to break, which need I remind you is not worth wasting 3k MP if your were going to use it on for DPS anyway... just cut out the middle man that is The Blackest Night...

[Lucy_Pyre]

Then you are probably standing in things that you shouldn't be standing in because you are trying to get it to break, which need I remind you is not worth wasting 3k MP if your were going to use it on for DPS anyway... just cut out the middle man that is The Blackest Night...

No, actually, I'm not. You see the thing is, I actually know when I can use TBN and get it to break. Are there times where I go into a dungeon and my TBN won't break? Absolutely. The only real times this happens is in the pulls in Twinning prior to the first boss (barring the very last double pull). However, outside of those times every piece of level 80 content in the game currently you can make use of TBN properly. Expert roulette dungeon tankbusters/trash pulls you are quite capable of making consistent use of TBN and getting it to break, and no, you don't have to stand in anything in order to do so. Frankly, you are proving that you have a critically flawed understanding of both the job itself as well as the game's content, as one of the skills that every tank should easily develop is an accurate understanding of how much damage dungeons pulls do and how much they are capable of managing on average. This requires factoring in all of your cooldowns. If you are not capable of getting your TBN to break in these dungeons then you are objectively using it wrong, as I can get it to break without issue and without standing in AoEs, and my tanks are 470 BiS; meaning that I have the maximum possible amount of HP and the shield is still breaking.

[DRKoftheAzure]

No, actually, I'm not. You see the thing is, I actually know when I can use TBN and get it to break. Are there times where I go into a dungeon and my TBN won't break? Absolutely. The only real times this happens is in the pulls in Twinning prior to the first boss (barring the very last double pull). However, outside of those times every piece of level 80 content in the game currently you can make use of TBN properly. Expert roulette dungeon tankbusters/trash pulls you are quite capable of making consistent use of TBN and getting it to break, and no, you don't have to stand in anything in order to do so. Frankly, you are proving that you have a critically flawed understanding of both the job itself as well as the game's content, as one of the skills that every tank should easily develop is an accurate understanding of how much damage dungeons pulls do and how much they are capable of managing on average. This requires factoring in all of your cooldowns. If you are not capable of getting your TBN to break in these dungeons then you are objectively using it wrong, as I can get it to break without issue and without standing in AoEs, and my tanks are 470 BiS; meaning that I have the maximum possible amount of HP and the shield is still breaking.

TBN is only really good in Ultimate like a lot of people have said, but I wouldn't know since it's not content I would run regularly, especially if I were to main DRK this expansion, and with this expansion killing fun for most tanks, DRK especially, it killed any possibility of me running Ultimate and maybe Savage...

And like you said TBN is really good if there is a lot of outgoing damage from the enemies... but there lies the first problem; "IF" not "WHEN"

[ArianeEwah]

Case is closed.

You could've saved your entire post there, everything you just wrote ignores the practical use and the facts I stated in my previous post.

Go out there and find cases where TBN does not cause a damage loss and still provides more eHPS DRK vs. WAR in a 5.1 savage fight. Until then you're proven wrong, nothing else. That just shows you have no practical experience with NF.