FFXIV Devs: Please STOP punishing normal players for others breaking the rules.

[SaitoHikari]

Sounds like even if SE kept the ability to move waymarks mid-fight, the person behind this tool DGAF and is gonna keep using it and distributing it until they're forced to stop.

The goal is to remove incentive to use it, not necessarily stop it. The former would naturally lead to the latter, but aiming strictly for the latter will backfire more than not.

What Phantom and the rest of us are repeatedly saying is that whoever made it won't give a damn regardless, but SE took an action that won't let legitimate players replicate the results through in-game means themselves.

[Arcari]

The goal is to remove incentive to use it, not necessarily stop it. The former would naturally lead to the latter, but aiming strictly for the latter will backfire more than not.

What Phantom and the rest of us are repeatedly saying is that whoever made it won't give a damn regardless, but SE took an action that won't let legitimate players replicate the results through in-game means themselves.

A question for you, then. I believe you stated that if SE keeps the ability for us legitimate players to move waymarks in combat, that would go a long way towards killing this program, or removing the incentive to use it, as you put it. Do you stand by that?

[Billythepancake]

A question for you, then. I believe you stated that if SE keeps the ability for us legitimate players to move waymarks in combat, that would go a long way towards killing this program, or removing the incentive to use it, as you put it. Do you stand by that?

If they allowed you to use the presets during the fight? Yeah, it would severally limit the use of the 3rd party program. Obviously some people would still use it, but why bother when the game makes it just as easy to use from the tools in the game and you don't have to go through the headache of setting up a new program?

[ForteNightshade]

A question for you, then. I believe you stated that if SE keeps the ability for us legitimate players to move waymarks in combat, that would go a long way towards killing this program, or removing the incentive to use it, as you put it. Do you stand by that?

The creator of the program has outright said they only made it because they felt marker placement should be available in game. There intend was to draw attention and hope SE implemented it themselves—much the same as WoW did when they found a useful add on stepped a little too far. And wouldn't you know it, that's exactly what happened. Except SE stupidly blocked marker placement as a whole. Which is why the tool is being tweaked. Had they let us adjust presets and make the overall feature at least comparably easy to use if not outright better, then the incentive to use a third party alternative dies.

For years the music cried and whined about piracy yet once iTune came out, offering both a convenient and reasonable price model, music piracy dropped for the first time in history. Most people will opt for official tools or options even if they come with a cost, provided those features are good.

[Arcari]

The creator of the program has outright said they only made it because they felt marker placement should be available in game. There intend was to draw attention and hope SE implemented it themselves—much the same as WoW did when they found a useful add on stepped a little too far. And wouldn't you know it, that's exactly what happened. Except SE stupidly blocked marker placement as a whole. Which is why the tool is being tweaked. Had they let us adjust presets and make the overall feature at least comparably easy to use if not outright better, then the incentive to use a third party alternative dies.

For years the music cried and whined about piracy yet once iTune came out, offering both a convenient and reasonable price model, music piracy dropped for the first time in history. Most people will opt for official tools or options even if they come with a cost, provided those features are good.

So why not just make a suggestion about it here in the forums? I'm sure SE would've appreciated the feedback if it was presented to them. Why did the creator of this program feel like they had to go this route of making it themselves, knowing that it might come back to bite them (or other players, as we're now witnessing) in the rear? I don't think their motives are quite as altruistic as you're suggesting.

...Yes, I am enjoying playing Devil's Advocate right now.

[Billythepancake]

So why not just make a suggestion about it here in the forums? I'm sure SE would've appreciated the feedback if it was presented to them. Why did the creator of this program feel like they had to go this route of making it themselves, knowing that it might come back to bite them (or other players, as we're now witnessing) in the rear? I don't think their motives are quite as altruistic as you're suggesting.

...Yes, I am enjoying playing Devil's Advocate right now.

I remember reading a couple of threads about people wanting waymarks to be automatic. It's been suggested several times, it wasn't' until someone did something they weren't supposed to on a popular stream that the devs decided to look into it.

[Tsukino]

Going to be great for 24 mans. Tank rushes in and immediately pulls, you're locked out from placing A-B-C markers for the adds, raid proceeds to scatter like headless chickens.

This. I place waypoints in almost every 24-person and it almost exclusively occurs during the fight because someone ran in immediately and started.

Not only will presets not be a good enough workaround in a lot of cases, but a few times I've had my waypoints removed during a fight and had to re-place them. Though people will likely be unable to remove them mid-fight as well now, assuming those people are just jerks who are trying to mess people up they can easily press the remove button and then pull, cementing a lack of waypoints for the entire fight.

It might work a little better if they allow you up until the closure of the arena to place them, but it doesn't sound like that's the plan so far.

[Avidria]

This. I place waypoints in almost every 24-person and it almost exclusively occurs during the fight because someone ran in immediately and started.

Not only will presets not be a good enough workaround in a lot of cases, but a few times I've had my waypoints removed during a fight and had to re-place them. Though people will likely be unable to remove them mid-fight as well now, assuming those people are just jerks who are trying to mess people up they can easily press the remove button and then pull, cementing a lack of waypoints for the entire fight.

It might work a little better if they allow you up until the closure of the arena to place them, but it doesn't sound like that's the plan so far.

I've also had plenty of Alliance runs where somebody puts markers in either the wrong place, a weird place, or a different order than the majority of groups I'm in place them... so people end up all kinds of messed up either because they try to follow the bad markers or because they're used to A being where B is and end up with the wrong alliance because only half the raid is following those markers at all.

I usually at least try to fix the markers when they get messed up like that, but uh... not anymore, I guess.

[Arcari]

I remember reading a couple of threads about people wanting waymarks to be automatic. It's been suggested several times, it wasn't' until someone did something they weren't supposed to on a popular stream that the devs decided to look into it.

Alright then:

-Were these popular threads? Did a lot of the community rally behind them, give them a lot of likes, etc?
-Was the feedback detailed and thorough as much as possible?
-Did the community team do their jobs and pass said feedback to the dev team for consideration, if the above two are true?

I'm not really expecting answers to any of those questions (especially to that third one because I don't think anyone wants to open that can of worms tonight); it's just stuff to consider.

I need to get some sleep so I'll close out with this. I firmly believe that official channels exist for a reason. If you (general you) feel that you have an awesome idea for the game's systems, use said channels. Don't go rushing to implement some 3rd party tool to get the job done, because it could very well come back to bite you or anyone else. We probably could've had this waymark preset stuff sooner if the community had been more vocal about it, and probably without the scorched earth condition that SE threw in with it because people wanted to use their 3rd party tools instead. Right now, I'm not feeling much appreciation towards SE or my fellow adventurers right now (the ones using the tools) in regards to this manner.

Have a good night, everyone. I appreciated the discussion.

[ForteNightshade]

So why not just make a suggestion about it here in the forums? I'm sure SE would've appreciated the feedback if it was presented to them. Why did the creator of this program feel like they had to go this route of making it themselves, knowing that it might come back to bite them (or other players, as we're now witnessing) in the rear? I don't think their motives are quite as altruistic as you're suggesting.

...Yes, I am enjoying playing Devil's Advocate right now.

How did it bite them in the rear? Their end goal was for SE to implement a variation of their program into the game itself—which is precisely what they're doing. They acknowledged what they set out to achieve.

As for posting feedback. The dev team isn't exactly quick when it comes to addressing it. We needs only look at the myriad of jobs that have suffered over the years; Monk in particular. I can all but guarantee we'd never see this feature were it not for how prevalent that program became.