Mediocrity should NOT be the standard for players in any content.

[linay]

While it would be great if everyone was on the same page and all healers tried to dps and all black mages used their fire spells and so on, it's not like that and as long as it doesn't actively impede on my ability to complete something, I don't really care. I'd rather spend an extra 5 minutes in a dungeon because of an ice mage or pure healer than I would be constantly frustrated at the inability to complete what should be considered the bare minimum. At the end of the day, majority of people are trying to complete the same content you are, no matter how bad or clueless or handicapped they may be otherwise.

And that's what the hall of novice teaches you: a way to complete a dungeon adequately. Pulling one group at a time would increase the likelihood of everyone making it through safely and you wouldn't need to worry about the aggro list as it's easier to see when you don't have all enemies attacking you, though it's less likely to happen now if you remember your tank stance, which the hall does tell you. Continuing with single target combo vs AOE can be situational, I feel, depending on if there is an enemy you want dead ASAP.

That said, if you want the tank to pull more or do AOE, that's when the multiplayer aspect comes in and people should communicate their wishes and even inform other players of things that they might not know or have forgotten.

[Ryaz]

Look at what SturmChurro said.
But also, with that logic. Would you work a 9-5 job with no pay? Would you plant a large amount of seeds in a football sized yard for it to never grow?
You accomplished something, you worked for 8 hours and was productive. Wouldn't you want something for all your hard work? No? you want to work for free? man.

Except I don't see FFXIV as a job. I play it to have fun. I'd rather not pay to work. Lol.

But I never said I disagree with people wanting rewards and I'm not against it. I went back and soloed A2S as my Paladin because I couldn't get a group and wanted the boots for my Samurai. I joined groups to learn the other Alex savages because I wanted the mounts. Due to my schedule and other commitments, I'm strictly a midcore/ex-trial player (no savage/ultimates), but I try to learn and perform the best I can.

I'm just against people who use their accomplishments as an excuse to belittle others and act like they're somehow a better human being.

My feelings on this thread is this: it comes down to the person. We can rag on toxic casuals who don't want to learn, sure. We can also rag on toxic elitists who treat others like crap because they don't live up to their standards (I've actually run into more of these than the former), but honestly, I've found people on both sides a rarity in the groups I've been in. There will always be people with different skill levels. Some won't be as good as me, some will be better.

It isn't about skill level, though. It's about individual personalities and those who refuse to learn. I don't see someone who uses easy mode in the MSQ as someone who refuses to learn. The MSQ quests are such a minuscule part of the overall experience, don't affect other players and from my own personal experiences, I've rarely been in groups where "mediocre" players are bringing down the whole group or are refusing to use their toolkit and ignoring advice. Quite the opposite, actually. Most people I encounter are grateful for advice when its given in a kind manner instead of "you're bad, do this". Had a new tank in Baelsar's yesterday and I noticed everyone but me was getting hit by the sensory jammer. I let them know how to avoid it and tank thanked me because while he had grasped the other mechanics, he had trouble figuring that one out. Now he knows for next time and he'll do better.

There are millions of people who play this game. They're all going to have different strengths and weaknesses. They're going to learn and grow. They may do MSQ on easy mode one day and be rocking ultimate the next.

With all the different tiers of difficulty, I just don't see why people think mediocrity is the standard. I don't believe it is.

[xxvaynxx]

Except I don't see FFXIV as a job. I play it to have fun. I'd rather not pay to work. Lol.

I knew this was gonna be the reply.
I didn't mean it like that, my analogy was that if you're doing something like ultimate for about 3 months and finally clear. Nobody is just gonna want the feeling of YAY I BEAT IT! people are gonna want a reward for all that progging and countless wipes.
If they offered you nothing for beating ultimate or savage VERY few people are even gonna bother.
Because sure you had fun but you'll also want a reward for your efforts.

[Ryaz]

I knew this was gonna be the reply.
I didn't mean it like that, my analogy was that if you're doing something like ultimate for about 3 months and finally clear. Nobody is just gonna want the feeling of YAY I BEAT IT! people are gonna want a reward for all that progging and countless wipes.
If they offered you nothing for beating ultimate or savage VERY few people are even gonna bother.
Because sure you had fun but you'll also want a reward for your efforts.

That was only part of the reply. I said I was guilty of doing the same. But as I said, it's the way society is today. There has to be a reward for something to motivate people to accomplish it instead of the actual accomplishment itself. I remember the days of NES where you played these brutally hard games and your only reward was some poorly translated text at the end saying "yay, you did it". And people loved it. Makes me wonder if people would put in as much effort today as back then for so little reward.

[Gula]

I'm saddened both our posts give the effort to explain things but don't bother being read. Meanwhile someone generically states "I want things" and they get +'d despite it having nothing to do with anything posted.

Are you actually salty that people don't agree with everything you say and aren't upvoting your post??

[Holymoly]

TL;DR: SE doesn't want us to "get gud". There's no need to anymore ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I agree however it's the way way all MMORPGs have gone over the last 20 years, from Everquest onwards. The biggest indicator of your opinion is the relative dearth of tanks and healers compared with dps when you are lining up for roulette. Tanks by and large need to know their way around dungeons while healers need to have an awarenesss of their surroundings beyond their own charater. Both these things require a degree of application and a willingness to learn. Many dps just get pulled through dungeons spending most of their time trying to pull aggro off the tank then complaining when they die.To expect developers to turn around and accept your arguments and go back to the old ways is niaive. There are so many games out there now that if a player hits a brick wall of difficulty they will just bail and start another game. Add to that the fact that 95+% of this game is solo then most of the time it is up to the individual how the play it. The dumbed down playerbase only becomes evident in the harder group instances. If you want to see the game played the way you think it should then maybe you should hit the pvp content.

Props for making this thread though.

[Valic]

However, I think you're a bit too focused on what everyone else is doing and joining the FFXIV roast. You might want to toss on some earmuffs, and just focus in on what you enjoy about the game.

I enjoy completing content with people and the coordination required rather than ignoring them. How exactly do I ignore this. We're not devs but we are the standard that the devs base making content off of. No, I'm not exaggerating lol... We've been sitting on this subject for ages thinking it's fine when it's not. It's not bashing the game either, it's bashing the developers "changes" to it over time that have had a negative impact on the game. I've provided plenty of facts in previous posts but they go ignored in favor of troll posts or "ur elitist" mentality.

Look at what SturmChurro said.
But also, with that logic. Would you work a 9-5 job with no pay? Would you plant a large amount of seeds in a football sized yard for it to never grow?
You accomplished something, you worked for 8 hours and was productive. Wouldn't you want something for all your hard work? No? you want to work for free? man.

Imagine doing charity work huh? Imagine feeling good about the accomplishment itself after it being done and the experience you got to have for it. What a waste for you I'm sure.

Except I don't see FFXIV as a job. I play it to have fun. I'd rather not pay to work. Lol.

But I never said I disagree with people wanting rewards and I'm not against it. I went back and soloed A2S as my Paladin because I couldn't get a group and wanted the boots for my Samurai. I joined groups to learn the other Alex savages because I wanted the mounts. Due to my schedule and other commitments, I'm strictly a midcore/ex-trial player (no savage/ultimates), but I try to learn and perform the best I can.

I'm just against people who use their accomplishments as an excuse to belittle others and act like they're somehow a better human being.

My feelings on this thread is this: it comes down to the person. We can rag on toxic casuals who don't want to learn, sure. We can also rag on toxic elitists who treat others like crap because they don't live up to their standards (I've actually run into more of these than the former), but honestly, I've found people on both sides a rarity in the groups I've been in. There will always be people with different skill levels. Some won't be as good as me, some will be better.

It isn't about skill level, though. It's about individual personalities and those who refuse to learn. I don't see someone who uses easy mode in the MSQ as someone who refuses to learn. The MSQ quests are such a minuscule part of the overall experience, don't affect other players and from my own personal experiences, I've rarely been in groups where "mediocre" players are bringing down the whole group or are refusing to use their toolkit and ignoring advice. Quite the opposite, actually. Most people I encounter are grateful for advice when its given in a kind manner instead of "you're bad, do this". Had a new tank in Baelsar's yesterday and I noticed everyone but me was getting hit by the sensory jammer. I let them know how to avoid it and tank thanked me because while he had grasped the other mechanics, he had trouble figuring that one out. Now he knows for next time and he'll do better.

There are millions of people who play this game. They're all going to have different strengths and weaknesses. They're going to learn and grow. They may do MSQ on easy mode one day and be rocking ultimate the next.

With all the different tiers of difficulty, I just don't see why people think mediocrity is the standard. I don't believe it is.

Keep in mind her string of posts started because she didn't read the original post and assumed I said "no rewards".

Are you actually salty that people don't agree with everything you say and aren't upvoting your post??

More-so that people post genuine arguments here and take the time to post something relative to the thread, then one person posts a generic statement like they walked into a court room with new evidence acting like they're a boss when it was irrelevant to the discussion to begin with. One person takes the time to write a logic and something palpable that's relative to why content is how it is... Another person goes "I want rewards, ur dumb" and gets attention for it? That is pretty stupid.

I agree however it's the way way all MMORPGs have gone over the last 20 years, from Everquest onwards. The biggest indicator of your opinion is the relative dearth of tanks and healers compared with dps when you are lining up for roulette. Tanks by and large need to know their way around dungeons while healers need to have an awarenesss of their surroundings beyond their own charater. Both these things require a degree of application and a willingness to learn. Many dps just get pulled through dungeons spending most of their time trying to pull aggro off the tank then complaining when they die.To expect developers to turn around and accept your arguments and go back to the old ways is niaive. There are so many games out there now that if a player hits a brick wall of difficulty they will just bail and start another game. Add to that the fact that 95+% of this game is solo then most of the time it is up to the individual how the play it. The dumbed down playerbase only becomes evident in the harder group instances. If you want to see the game played the way you think it should then maybe you should hit the pvp content.

Props for making this thread though.

I'ma correct ya on just one detail... Tanks do not need to know their way around a dungeon as much as one thinks. Every dungeon in this game is linear, a straight line with sets of mobs to pull. You pull one set, you use mitigation, and aoe it until it gets burned down. There's no exploration really to it or info needed, you also have a map too but again, dungeons are pretty linear roller coasters for the most part. I actually do play pvp content and mentioned that as apart of my opening post how the developers don't add any form of content requiring the player to learn anything basic for pvp. Something as simple as a practice mode for rival wings or frontlines, they have NPC's they can setup AI for to run as if it were the real thing and then detail in on what the player needs to do. I don't see why PVP has to be ignored and brushed off to the side without anything to encourage a player to understand their kit or at least what the mode consists of doing?


at this rate though...I think I'm done trying to prove any point here. I've posted what I can and most of it either goes ignored, is taken in an entirely different direction not relative to the idea of encouraging players to want to improve, or it's simply not worth the time to read anything beyond the tl;dr. What happens after this is your call folks o/

[SieyaM]

Look at what SturmChurro said.
But also, with that logic. Would you work a 9-5 job with no pay? Would you plant a large amount of seeds in a football sized yard for it to never grow?
You accomplished something, you worked for 8 hours and was productive. Wouldn't you want something for all your hard work? No? you want to work for free? man.

I would think the fact that you compared playing this game to a regular 9-5 job means you are missing the entire point of playing anything. This is meant to be for fun, something you do because you enjoy it, not because you are getting some kind of payment (or reward as payment) for what you put in.

[Gemina]

I enjoy completing content with people and the coordination required rather than ignoring them. How exactly do I ignore this. We're not devs but we are the standard that the devs base making content off of. No, I'm not exaggerating lol... We've been sitting on this subject for ages thinking it's fine when it's not. It's not bashing the game either, it's bashing the developers "changes" to it over time that have had a negative impact on the game. I've provided plenty of facts in previous posts but they go ignored in favor of troll posts or "ur elitist" mentality.

You do understand where the elitist comments come from, correct? You expect all players to perform up to arbitrary standards instead of establishing an equilibrium with those of lesser skill, lesser patience, lesser time to play; lesser of whatever it is you bring. Skill levels in particular are all over the map. Not everyone can memorize a boss's order of mechanics and play proactively; casual content MUST be designed according to the lowest common denominator, which is why EX, Savage and ultimate exist. That way they can raise the bar much higher when designing the encounter.

You're not exaggerating the existence of the issues you bring up. You exaggerate their severity and impact on the game as a whole. And the devs and the game are one of the same. You don't bash or praise one without doing the same to the other.

[Melichoir]

.............People don't improve because they don't want to improve. The kind of player you want is going to want to improve regardless of the skill floor or ceiling, and they will continue to work on that as long as they play. And when they reach their skill cap - which people do and certainly will if the game difficulty keeps increasing in the way that you suggest - if that blocks their progress, they will stop playing. Since, yes, it IS a game. I'm not sure you understand the term 'hand-waving' but calling a game a game certainly isn't it.

After thinking things, I believe we're talking past each other in the sense that it's a disagreement about the methods of improvement and the necessity of difficulty in the casual player base. I dont get the impression that your position is "Improvement isnt necessary at all", but that you think itll happen for people who want it regardless if there is challenge present, where Im trying to say that improvement is predicated on the necessity of challenge. To continuously improve, there must be continuous challenge, and it is healthier for the game if people have to encounter challenge and overcome it at a regular basis (even bit by bit) than to flatten the difficulty curve or worse make it easier as the xpac progresses.

To address some earlier things you said, I disagree that people just get better on Motivation and Willingness alone. Growth first and foremost requires adversity (aka challenge) where Motivation and willingness are the tools to help that growth occur. You need something to test yourself against, fail, learn, and retest. Repeating the process as needed till you reach a level of improvement or accomplishment that you desired. To take up the challenge, to keep testing yourself, to keep going despite failure, That's where motivation and willingness come into play. Youre confusing the drive to do something with an actual concrete goal to overcome. You can say "I will be a better person today" and have all the willingnes and motivation to do so, but if you cant hammer down the terms of what it means to "be a better person" by looking at what you do, identifying issues you have trouble with, and rising to the challenge of correcting those issues, it is all meaningless. And it's not always get motivated and willing then find a problem. Sometimes you encounter a problem and had no prior motivation or willingness, but upon confronting that problem, you gain those aspects to overcome said issue. You decide "Hey, Im gonna tackle this because x,y,z." But it all requires a challenge, either one put in front of you, or one you seek. Motivation and willingness are secondary factors, albeit important ones.

To touch on your own life experiences again, you have improved through out your life and career because you have imposed arbitrary barriers on yourself, along with barriers put before you by external forces. The self drive to seek out the 'challenge' to improve for your own sense of self worth as well challenges given to you by other people to prove your worth (like a book deal, or being a Screen writing, or to draft something that people want to read). To improve, you needed something to go up against, either self imposed or imposed upon you. Simply saying "I have the willingness to take on a challenge, and Id be motivated to do it" isnt gonna make you better. You need to test yourself against something to fail, learn, and improve. And you, by the sounds of it, sought those challenges to cut your teeth on. Unless your arguing that your willingness and motivation alone brought you success and you havent encountered failure or challenges, but I suspect thats not your point.

One of the overall importance of this is game health and cross community interactions. I think segmenting the community into "This stuff is for hardcore, this stuff for casual," etc and pushing the gap by designing content where the casual base does not improve by being challenged to improve is creating a lot of issues, particularly if you have a LOT more overlap from the hardcore gamers than from the casual. What I mean is that Hardcore gamers see more of the game overall content and have greater community interaction that the casual gamers who never go into expert or savage beyond googling a guide to their class or the normal version of a fight.

Consider this from the other angle - Savage players do play casual content, and are typically required to do so for their endeavors in savage. BiS sets require both phanta gear as well as Eden gear currently. Which means they have to slog through content that's not only to easy for them, but also deal with players that slow down their progress by being purposefully lazy in that content. Now to be clear, I am making a point about players who would be capable but choose to low ball it consistently, not new or players with exceptions. The meme is about the snootyness of Raiders, but how often to people consider it from their perspective and the fact that by necessity they must also do that casual content and have to deal with a lot of shenanigans. Should we really be saying it's ok that 2-4 years after a mechanic was introduced that players dont know how to do it? This isnt Hello World were talking about, for anyone whos familiar. This is the blind marker, or stack marker, or the 'get away from me' marker.

The fact that SE has to nerf dungeons so consistently doesnt mean that SE has overtuned these dungeons (though that is a possibility), but might be more that the player base has either been lulled into a low effort position or pushed to quickly through content that was to easy and when presented with challenge are ill equipped to deal with it. Continuing to lower the skill floor just creates a vicious cycle of lower expectations as it trains your players on what to expect to progress. And the issue with calling it a game is that it isnt being treated as such and is being used as an out. Games have challenges, They have rules, they have conduct, etc. When we talk about it being a game, we understand implicitly that there is likely to have challenges involved. Yet this is more often used as an excuse to dismiss criticism of poor play. "Oh I dont have to play this game seriously because it's just a game." Not "Derp, yeah I wasnt playing the game right and it was impacting my fellow players." If youre choosing to play teh game but then choose to say screw it to proper play because you cant be bothered, despite it impacting your fellow player, then youre not really 'playing the game', are you. If you were playing baseball and walked to first after tapping the ball and got tagged out, you think people are just gonna accept youre "It's just a game" response? Theyre gonna ask "Why you even playing if you dont want to try and play?" Theyre gonna get frustrated and pissed dealing with you who doesnt seem to give two damns, yet still gets to reap the rewards of a win if your team pulls it off.

Again, you're the one who said 'much more difficult'. If you don't mean 'much more difficult' but only 'slightly more difficult' you could just have said so instead typing an essay to rebut what I was saying. I mean, if you mean 'slightly more difficult', fair enough. But that is NOT what you said.

The MSQ ramps up the difficulty slowly, it doesn't go from - for example - The Aetherochemical Research Facility (last dungeon of 3.0) to 'much more difficult' by the end of HW. Yes, it's more difficult but the difficulty spike isn't huge. Again, you said 'much more difficult', I am not putting words in your mouth.

A small way? So NOT 'much more difficult' then? Really you could just have redefined your original argument and apologised for the misunderstanding and we wouldn't have needed this discussion.

Well, you got me on this, so I'm sorry. Youre right, maybe I was being a bit to hyperbolic in my example and it couldve used some clarity but doubled down on it simply because I think the skill floor problem is an understated issue. So Ill clarify: I want gradual difficulty increases from the beginning of an xpac to the end, where it's not to much that its near savage tier, but not so gradual that there is no discernible difference. Difficulty that ensures the player base understands relevant mechanics as well as a decent understanding of their class. One way this can be accomplished by forcefully over dungeons and fights to incorporate more savage-esque skills, concepts, and abilities with ample room for forgiveness. To make it clear that yes, you have to know how this mechanic works or you cannot beat the boss within the alloted time. To push the potential that yes, you can actually fail a duty and that might require people to work things out if they want the rewards and benefits of progress. As it stands now, unless there is something extreme going on, you wont time out on dungeons. You can eat almost every boss mechanic and survive so long as the healer is spamming heals. You dont have to how to use skills like Arm's Length, dont have to know if you need to stun or interrupt, dont really need to avoid aoe damage, DPS checks are non existent, etc. This isnt good, IMO, for the game. It doesnt teach you how to play or improve as you're rewarded either way. It creates a divide between the average player and the more hardcore crowd. That division creates toxicity and its not only one way from the top down.

This doesnt mean ramp difficulty up over night, or make it so you are going from Sastasha to final Savage in an xpac MSQ Dungeons or trials. It means gradual challenge for gradual improvement and understanding.

And I'm not being patronising. I make no assumptions about anyone's skill level, and they are welcome to improve or not as they choose. I'm all for them improving. But I'm not going to start demanding artificial increases in the difficulty curve of the kind you first proposed to force people to 'git gud or quit'. You are saying now that isn't what you meant, but you are the person who asked for 'much more difficulty' in the MSQ in the space of one expansion.

I have to disagree with you here though. Much like me not being clear, either youre being a bit over reaching in your earlier statements or youre really assuming most people cant, not wont, rise to the challenge of harder content and that raiders are 'special'. That they are unable to progress upwards. You didnt say some, or few, you argued most, and that it was an inherent factor. That speaks poorly about the player base, and it's patronizing because I think you're speaking from a position of compassion and understanding for fellow players. You obviously want what you think is best for the player base and game, so saying that most of them will never be as good as savage raiders because they cant be is kinda looking down on them and assuming that they, despite earnest efforts, cant make it to the top due to factors outside their control.