Mediocrity should NOT be the standard for players in any content.

[QT_Melon]

I mean... your post really comes off as directed specifically at content that requires you to watch a video and assuming people only go "watch this video and we're doing it this way only". The point of the thread isn't about this at all as is, it's about helping players naturally through the content required to clear to understand base mechanics of both their job and how to function for most basic mechanics as a group. Not why players shouldn't/should be pointing at guides/videos as a source of help. That's the only thing I'm saying you've misinterpreted from my thread/post(s).

Not when I said multiple times that there's nothing wrong with reading/watching or using a guide. But maybe that's the problem - a person wants to half read something and only wants to hyperfocus on one part of someone's explanation. Then go and turn around and say exactly what I have been saying like this explanation WASN'T already stated *shrugs*

[Valic]

Not when I said multiple times that there's nothing wrong with reading or using a guide. But maybe that's the problem - a person wants to half read something and only wants to hyperfocus on one part of someone's explanation.

Your post came off as opposite to me. Like it was trying to say how many players would rather point others at a video than teach. My bad.

[QT_Melon]

Your post came off as opposite to me. Like it was trying to say how many players would rather point others at a video than teach. My bad.

my quote

Also telling someone to watch a guide in a learning party is also mediocrity. People running to the meta strat instead of teaching your party how to handle a mechanic is lazy. That said its not bad for them to watch one but getting upset at people who don't and are there to learn at a LEARNING party show the other spectrum of subscribing to mediocrity.

But that's okay, like many players in this game, people don't always pick up on an explanation the first time, and sometimes you know, may need multiple runs to thoroughly digest and understand it.

[Valic]

my quote


But that's okay, like many players in this game, people don't always pick up on an explanation the first time, and sometimes you know, may need multiple runs to thoroughly digest and understand it.

Fair. And in the end that teaches me not to skim some portions of a post or I regret it.

#METAphors

[BroFists]

Holy necro batman

[Liam_Harper]

I do the bare minimum all the time.
Getting grey parses don't matter if I can clear with it.

Why?

I don't mean that as an attack, more a genuinely curious question. You're paying a sub and burning your own spare time to play this game, but don't want to participate beyond the minimum. What keeps you playing instanced content here when you have no goals of improvement, no accomplishments worth anything and won't ever be a valued member of any team? Is it simply the participation rewards?

I mean, you've stated you do the bare minimum, not that you can't perform better. What blocks your motivation to push further or give more than that minimum?

[Melichoir]

Isn't that what the game does with with it's content with Savage and Ultimate? Also I don't see why the small hardcore community is more important than the loyal casual/midcore community.

It's more meta than people think. As I think I explained, hardcore crowds draw in casual players. It isnt the only important thing, but it is a big factor. Hardcore crowds show off challenge, exclusivity with Items and Gear, Titles, Achievements, and fun. Not that you dont have fun doing casual stuff, but Hardcore players and content who are very enthusiastic and put a lot of time and effort into the game are what help draw in a lot of casual players. Endorsement from hardcore crowds tends to speak worlds about a game. Probably cause theyre more finicky.

I mean consider a few things. What jokes do people make about games "It's to hardcore" or "It's to casual". It's a meme about hardcore snootyness, but its a joke about a game being to casual.

Even consider your position strictly from best bang for buck from SE's end: Would they invest time, effort, and money into creating content only 10% of the pop uses unless there was something to it? Wouldnt they just say "Screw savage, more casual dungeons and what not. All you need to do is grind and you get the pretty stuff!" If thats all it takes to keep subs up? They know well enough that you need to have a hardcore crowd a long with a casual crowd and people in between to keep the game healthy.

To be clear though, to much of one side is bad. If the game is to hard for people to get into, it just becomes a niche thing.

I think your way overstating how important the hardcore raiders are to the game, especially as to make them happy you need to make things a lot worse for large chunks of the community.

This isnt an all or nothing deal. Im not saying there shouldnt be casual content. Im saying there should be a skill floor with 'tiers'. Im not advocating "Lets just go from killing mobs in Sastasha straight into killing UCoB" That would be absurd. But pushing people to improve in small increments and punishing them for not doing that would actually end up helping the game. We know Brayflox Longstep is harder than sastasha, yet no one is arguing that "it's to big a jump!" and "It's bad for the community!" It's an expected progression of difficulty that people adapt to, and you get there in a controlled manner. The issue Im seeing is that when people hit max level, theyre saying "No, things shouldnt get any harder. This isnt hardcore" and then complaining how come Gear is so hard to get, or how come boss fights are different for savage, or how come you cant do this or that. There's some weird mentality that the second you hit 80, you shouldnt be needing to improve to tackle new challenges, when arguably thats where the most improvement and nuance is needed. Thats when you fine tune your skill. That is a problem, and SE should stop feeding into it by creating content that you just cant plow through without thought. Content that challenges players to think even a little.

You've not given a good reason why making everything punishing is a good thing. The game does need a smoother jump from day to day content to the endgame stuff but that needs more content adding in the range which I suspect would not go down well with the Hardcore you say is so important as they will likely not be doing it.

I did give a reason or two, like disparity between skilled and unskilled players creates toxicity and the only way to close that gap is either cap the skill ceiling, or raise the skill floor over time. The former is stupid because it kills your hardcore base, which I think is important to game health. The latter requires SE pushing people to improve themselves. You and I seem to agree conceptually that there does need to be a smoother ramp up, and maybe that is all thats required currently to address most issues. But that ramp up inherently requires making content thats more difficult than what the casual player is used to. Though long term everyone benefits cause as your casual base closes in on your hardcore in skill, you can start creating harder content for the hardcore crowd to tackle (something even above Ultimates, or pushing Savage to be a lot more difficult) but this is down the road. Go to hard and to fast, even for the hardcore crowd, and it damages your game. Thats what happened in Alexander first Tier.

But arguing that there shouldnt be enforced challenge that slowly elevates player skill at the bottom end, albeit slowly, is hurting the game.

Or in simpler terms, the last dungeon of the xpac should be much more difficult than the first post max level dungeon in patch X.1.

[Elladie]

Or in simpler terms, the last dungeon of the xpac should be much more difficult than the first post max level dungeon in patch X.1.

No. No it really shouldn't.

Think about what you are saying. You are saying the game should continue to get harder throughout its lifespan. That's an inbuilt self-destruct button right there that no developer would consider for a second. Nothing in life works that way for goodness sake.

I'm a writer. I started writing as a child and it was hard for a long time. But I worked at it and I improved and it started to get easier. Now I make money out of it. I continue to improve even now because I love writing and it matters to me. But if it had continued to get harder every time I went up a level, even though I was trying to improve, I would have given up.

This is a GAME. People play it to have FUN. Some are a great deal better at it than others, and they're playing in the Championship League. The folks who play in the Sunday League know they'll never make it to the Championship and they're happy with that. They work on their skills and improve to the level that they're capable of. Telling them they're not allowed to play anymore because the game got made harder, telling them Sunday League play isn't allowed anymore and they have to quit, that's really what you want? Do you not grasp the concept that people are different, and the vast majority have a skill ceiling that keeps them in the Sunday League?

The MSQ part of this game should be available to everyone who pays a sub. Nobody should be locked out of progressing through the MSQ because of difficulty that increases relentlessly, unceasingly, for as long as the game expands. Optional content, fine. Gate that all you want. Make it as hard as you want. Insist that people have to be a certain standard to get into that optional content.

You need to understand that most people - contrary to what this forum seems to think - are trying hard. They want to improve. They work on their skills and learning mechanics and everything else. BUT THEY ARE INHERENTLY NOT AS SKILLFUL AS YOU AND THEY NEVER WILL BE. SE knows this, and they have no intention of abandoning 80% of their player base and subs based upon your reasoning.

edit: I'm not saying there aren't trolls and bad eggs out there, but they are in the minority. Sadly people - like me - who try hard and want to improve are put off from doing anything that might be considered 'harder' content by the way we get spoken to in (for example) alliance raids because we're still learning mechanics and we mess up.

[jameseoakes]

I think you massively overstate the importance of the Hardcore raidcrowd. Flashy content is good for the game but these days the hardcore crowd is just a nasty clique screaming about parses and which addons they use to cheat with while saying the game is too easy. It’s not a good look, but this part of the community is just an echo chamber looking to shout down everyone who disagrees while shouting for tools to bully out everyone who does share there playstyle as ultimately that is all most of these threads are about. The dungeons have been on the easy side for awhile (though dungeon difficulty has been all over the place since ARR) but when they have tired to make more demanding content for the story it tends to cause issues (looking a Steps of Faith which was a massive issue as everyone bailed the moment the roulette put you in there), so I’m not sure what your expecting SE to do, they won’t make the dungeons so punishing no one stays in them which is what will happen if they make them too hard and it looks like they don’t have the resources to fill the cap between roulette fodder and the the extreme ends of the end game.

[Mahrze]

Or in simpler terms, the last dungeon of the xpac should be much more difficult than the first post max level dungeon in patch X.1.

This ain't it chief. SE caters to the "hardcore" players just as much as the "casuals". The game has content and will likely always work to please everyone they can in their player-base. Like someone pointed out, ARRs Steps of Faith was nerfed because the average player could not clear it, regardless of our perspective of "how high or low the skill bar is set" if players want to challenge themselves they can do so by going out of their way to do said optional content, not to always have a hurdle after the other because reasons.

Yoshida has come clean btw that they don't design any "difficult" content in favor of it being streamed so please abandon said rationale that hardcore content is some form for advertisement. It "working" (debatable) as such doesn't mean it was intended as such. By contrast if it was an intent in design I think with how they want the PVP in this game to be a thing they would invest more into it but I digress.

They've found a reasonable balance as of late that favors anyone who wishes to try anything above "MSQ level". Otherwise, you're asking for something they will other overtune and we'll see Steps of Faith/Gordias Savage problems or back to this same dog and pony show.