What healers could stand to lose.

[Saefinn]

I think the purpose behind the thread makes sense, look at what we don't need that contributes as part of healer bloat. Though obviously, some disagreement on the list.

I'd agree on Indom and Physick. I don't really get much use out of Dissipation because I don't need to. And I don't get a /lot/ of use out of Aetherpact either, but I still find it useful when I do. But if our healing is nerfed by removing other abilities, I wonder if these would be skills I'd find more useful. So with that, I'm on the fence.

Nocturnal sect. I like healing in it, but then it makes me work harder than Diurnal. Diurnal/Nocturnal is great for AST's identity of being adaptable. Oddly I am in the minority of people who thinks Nocturnal is fine, but then my view is that healing jobs heal too well, so when something is healing less well, that's a positive for me. I usually try to pick it over Diurnal. I think there's room for improvement, mind you. And removing the card system of AST altogether would be a 'no' from me because the main reason I picked up AST in 5.0 is because of two things. Nocturnal Sect reduces my healer downtime versus Diurnal and playing SCH or WHM. And because cards break up my down time. Whilst the card system is less engaging than it used to be, it's still more engaging than spamming Malefic or Gravity.

As for Planery Indulgance, I'd agree if it was still Stormblood, but as I understand it's good now (I've only just started getting my WHM caught up, so not played much of it in ShB). Lilies seems like an arbitrary addition, potentially that could be removed, although it seems better now than it was in SB, but I cannot help but just think of it as a reverse aetherflow. You build up stacks and use them instead of starting with stacks and using them.

[WaxSw]

This is purely speculative and currently based on ShB.

Sch
-Indomability, just give emergency tactics the ability to make things insta cast boom nothing lost except a dump.
-Physick, just gets outdated with Adlo which you get upon unlocking sch
-Dissipation, as it is clunky and counter intuitive to half of sch kit
-Aetherpact, again clunky and counter intuitive to other parts of sch's kit

Talking only about sch:

-Indom: NO, PLS NO indom its a skill that encourages the player to use the AE stacks to heal therefore giving more emphasis in the part of plan how many Ed you use and which skills you would use, I'd prefer the devs to remove ET completely than losing one of the best tools we have

-Physick: Yes, burn it

-Dissipation: Not clunky at all, fits the idea again that sch has to plan their resources since you lose the fairy in exchange for more Aetherflow and it rewards the good player giving them more oportunities to use ED, definitively a skill that I woudnt want to lose.

-Aetherpact: If you remove it...whats the point of the fairy in single target situation? Her embrace is weak af, you cant control it and all the other skills are aoe, removing aetherpact would hurt the fairy and therefore would hurt part of sch identity, besides is super convenient to use in high end content like savages or ultimates, another skill that needs to stay

[Saefinn]

I think the pay off with losing Indom is that we get more stacks to use with Energy Drain, which breaks up the downtime a little. I think then it means the Scholars will also have to be a little more creative with how they keep AoE health up, but to me that's a good thing, it's more of a healing focus then. We have an insta AoE still with Fey Blessing to fulfill situations where it's more necessary (maybe the pay off would be to reduce the cooldown on it).

I feel Indom is one of those skills that can encourage you to not make full use of other healing abilities in your toolkit, because it's so effective. I'd argue it is the ability that made Scholar go from being more balanced in ARR to OP in HW.

[Crushnight]

I think the pay off with losing Indom is that we get more stacks to use with Energy Drain, which breaks up the downtime a little. I think then it means the Scholars will also have to be a little more creative with how they keep AoE health up, but to me that's a good thing, it's more of a healing focus then. We have an insta AoE still with Fey Blessing to fulfill situations where it's more necessary (maybe the pay off would be to reduce the cooldown on it).

I feel Indom is one of those skills that can encourage you to not make full use of other healing abilities in your toolkit, because it's so effective. I'd argue it is the ability that made Scholar go from being more balanced in ARR to OP in HW.

Exactly Seafinn, Indomability is arguably the best healer ogcd and sch by extension has way more ogcd aoe heals than the others with indom, wispering dawn, fey blessing, consolidation, and sacred soil, Ast has 2 being Collective Unconsciousness and Celestial Opposition, Whm has assize and Asylum. (Any others for ast/whm require gcds to activate aka PI and Horoscope)

What used to be sch's weakness is now its strongest part XD you have so many answers to everything but indom works best it is so good/efficient and convenient other parts of the kit fall behind. Indomability hampers the kit far more from a design standpoint i'd rather it go or get weakened considerably. Indomability is also an ability like cure 3 where it's removal wouldn't actually prevent people clearing content much like ast's Horoscope and Nocturnal Sect.

Nocturnal ast if going to remain cannot compete with sch on a fundemental level as they are designed widely different Nocturnal is hampered being tied to Diurnal as Ast is designed closer to whm as the base whereas sch has a very different albeit they are trying to hammer it into the whm mold despite it being best not to and design a 4th healer along sch's pre ShB base design.

Honestly if we had only HW's healing kit we would be able to clear savages fine, only ultimate even warrants all the gcd, ogcd heals we received since HW something such a tiny portion of the player base even attempts, right now all healers are bloated with heals, too many heals despite it being their goddamn role it just adds to the tedium and pointlessness that they keep gaining more.

If tanks only get tank cds for 2 expansions they would riot because fight design wouldn't require them until ultimate so for majority of player base nigh worthless

[Connor]

I feel Indom is one of those skills that can encourage you to not make full use of other healing abilities in your toolkit, because it's so effective. I'd argue it is the ability that made Scholar go from being more balanced in ARR to OP in HW.

I actually agree that Indomitability is maybe a too powerful, maybe not in terms of potency, but just the fact that you can use it to completely negate the need to use other parts of the toolkit, particularly defensive oriented spells like Adloquium and Succor. It’s not that Scholar shouldn’t have it or that there’s anything wrong with it, but we’re at a point where it’s like ‘why do I even need those other spells?’.

Excogitation is another offender for that in my opinion. There’s pretty much no reason to ever use Adloquium over Excogitation in any non-AoE situation that requires healing. And Physick is so weak in comparison to everything else that it barely warrants being considered when healing. Excogitation is a massive heal, costs essentially nothing to the Scholar, and is compatible with Recitation to make a heal that’s nearly equal to critical Adloquium, without the need for a cast time or MP consumption. It’s like, ‘why do I have Physick / Adloquium / Lustrate’ when they’re all useless compared to Excogitation?’. I can’t think of many situations where you’d ever have to follow up Excogitation with further healing, especially if you’re in content with a second healer. I can understand having such higher potency when it was possible to use it but not have it activate, but it seems a bit much now that it’s guaranteed.

It feels like one of the main themes they’ve had for designing Scholar at each expansion is ‘how can we add one ability that makes the rest redundant?’ Like why bother even giving us Physick and Adloquium if they don’t want us to use them and use solely OGCDs for healing? And then there’s the fact that now the vast majority of Scholar’s healing is oGCD based, but we don’t have any GCDs to use between oGCDs other than Broil and Biolysis.

It’s difficult for me to try and resolve their logic with these choices other than sheer short-sightedness. Being a primarily oGCD healer is fine I guess, but if you don’t give it GCDs to use between those oGCDs then it’s going to feel dull and weird no matter how effective it is.

[Volkaj]

Exactly Seafinn, Indomability is arguably the best healer ogcd and sch by extension has way more ogcd aoe heals than the others with indom, wispering dawn, fey blessing, consolidation, and sacred soil, Ast has 2 being Collective Unconsciousness and Celestial Opposition, Whm has assize and Asylum. (Any others for ast/whm require gcds to activate aka PI and Horoscope)

The best healer OGCD is AST's Earthly Star. WHM can use PI on Afflatus: Rapture, which is 225 effective DPS potency through the blood lily.
Indomability is also the second least potent AoE OGCD. The least potent being Fey Blessing, another of SCH's.

There seems to be a lot of people (WHMs?) still salty from SCH's dominance in HW, even if the very things they complain about have been fixed and/or replaced.
Removing Indomability would also make SCH really, really weak in pure healing scenarios. Consider that after Emergency Tactics, SCH can only GCD heal at 180 potency per cast.

As for skills I personally believe could be removed:

Cure I, Physick, Benefic I: Promote bad/inefficient play 90% of the time.
Medica I: Overshadowed by Cure III and Medica II.
Fluid Aura: No longer pushbacks. Completely useless.
Summon Selene: Carbon copy of Summon Eos. Why even waste a skill slot for this? Just give SCHs fairy glamours.
Play: Just revert back to SB's Draw. No need for an extra button for this.
Undraw: Manually removing the card buff is faster.

[Saefinn]

The best healer OGCD is AST's Earthly Star. WHM can use PI on Afflatus: Rapture, which is 225 effective DPS potency through the blood lily.
Indomability is also the second least potent AoE OGCD. The least potent being Fey Blessing, another of SCH's.

There seems to be a lot of people (WHMs?) still salty from SCH's dominance in HW, even if the very things they complain about have been fixed and/or replaced.
Removing Indomability would also make SCH really, really weak in pure healing scenarios. Consider that after Emergency Tactics, SCH can only GCD heal at 180 potency per cast.

As for skills I personally believe could be removed:

Cure I, Physick, Benefic I: Promote bad/inefficient play 90% of the time.
Medica I: Overshadowed by Cure III and Medica II.
Fluid Aura: No longer pushbacks. Completely useless.
Summon Selene: Carbon copy of Summon Eos. Why even waste a skill slot for this? Just give SCHs fairy glamours.
Play: Just revert back to SB's Draw. No need for an extra button for this.
Undraw: Manually removing the card buff is faster.

I'm a Scholar thinking it should be removed. I can't think of how SCH would be in a much worse situation without it, but is something I'm experimenting with at the moment, I've removed Indom from my crossbar. It was added back when SCH's weakness was that it couldn't get people's health back up quickly. Back then I was one of those Scholars who found ways of making up for that weakness and honestly, thought the it was fun and didn't feel SCH needed that patching, because I had to utilise my other spells better. And I don't think the job suffered from it in content. Whilst content is not the same nowadays, we also have more healing tools at our disposal to better utilise and we still have Fey Blessing, which as a pay off, could have its recast time reduced.


With regards to summon Selene. I'd prefer they reverse their decision to remove Selene's abilities. But the others listed I agree with, well on the fence for Medica I, but I don't play much WHM (and only just starting to catch up in ShB on it), when I have I use it more than Cure III, but a WHM could walk in and say "what are you doing fam? Medica I is so obsolete".

[EaMett]

Can't help but think a lot of these suggestions come from a lack of high end content healing experience. I'll admit this savage tier was relatively easy so I can see where the confusion would come from since you don't need your full healing kit, but still.

[Saefinn]

Can't help but think a lot of these suggestions come from a lack of high end content healing experience. I'll admit this savage tier was relatively easy so I can see where the confusion would come from since you don't need your full healing kit, but still.

As I've argued in other threads the healing toolkit is not appropriate for the content we've got. I don't think it's a bad kit (if anything I think it's a better healing toolkit versus SB), just not appropriate.

Though it does raise the issue: the disparity between, casual, semi casual and non-casual content. Non-high end raid content needs to be interesting to heal, for example.

[vtndll]

Are we making 6.0 predictions? If so I predict that all the healers will get a dps rotation to make the people that want a more complex dps rotation happy. But here is the kicker, square enix makes it one button that auto cycles through the three skills. So all the healers are left with just pressing one button a majority of the time still!