Recent Developments of TOS Actions Taken

[monk-dps]

You see a lot of what you're saying is right, until we have context on the BLM, a leech creeping around JP for carries only doing 6k. He wasn't respectful, he wasn't considering other people's time, and the whole of a server seemed to not care.

No functioning adult is gonna sugar coat reality for people, things aint sweet and coming to clear parties under performing is the definition of casual toxicity. People want respect but don't even give any before asking for it in return.

You can probably go ask a Nico Nico stream, but they'll proba ly make a poll for their stream then laugh when everyone says no.

So because the BLM was a moron it's ok to jump to his level and break said rules? Wouldn't the better and smarter thing to do would be to kick and move on? OR if he's being that bad report him yourself? Being the bigger person isn't naming and shaming, or being a dick. It's knowing when to say " NOPE... just hitting this report button and walking the heck away." Cause the issue is when you jump to their level all they have to do is report you first. And they will be first if your first thought is to -Get even- instead of walking away.

[Angus-Beef]

So because the BLM was a moron it's ok to jump to his level and break said rules? Wouldn't the better and smarter thing to do would be to kick and move on? OR if he's being that bad report him yourself? Being the bigger person isn't naming and shaming, or being a dick. It's knowing when to say " NOPE... just hitting this report button and walking the heck away." Cause the issue is when you jump to their level all they have to do is report you first. And they will be first if your first thought is to -Get even- instead of walking away.

The issue was that Arthars left his name there, next time just dont leave the name. I still see nothing wrong with laughing about the dumb things you see in Party Finder outside the game. If SE wants to ban people for that then have fun. But people laughing on stream over in the persons face isnt the worst thing.

[Halivel]

In my experience, its usually casuals who end up being most toxic simply because they either think they know more than they do or believe that thins should cater to their play style. I see it far more often than not.

I suspect that the reason for that is mostly the fact that almost in every MMO game, including FF14 (and probably especially FF14) so called casuals make up from 80 to 95% of playerbase. The amount of toxic players in two categories is probably the same in terms of percentage in specific group, but when one of them highly outweighs another in population, you have higher chance to meet toxic people in a group that is bigger at least because non-toxic players are mostly just silent, you don't even notice them most of the time, while rotten apple is often right before your sight and makes you annoyed on top of that, so it just sticks to the memory.

[monk-dps]

The issue was that Arthars left his name there, next time just dont leave the name. I still see nothing wrong with laughing about the dumb things you see in Party Finder outside the game. If SE wants to ban people for that then have fun. But people laughing on stream over in the persons face isnt the worst thing.

You're right. The only issue here is his naming and shaming. The nico nico people named and shamed too.. thats why SE were banning people.SE isn't banning people for laughing at the dumb stuff in PF.. if that were the case then everyone on this site is dead cause we have a topic doing just that thats over 2000 pages long. So everyone memeing SE is overstepping is stupid at best and -seriously- at worst. SE isn't and hasn't overstepped any lines and people saying they are just being outraged for no reason. Like I said before, don't be a dick and you'll be fine. Trust me.

Tiny edit. I say this cause you can't control other people. You can not make someone do over 6k DPS, you can't make them practice and you can't make them care. That's on them. If they are in your party and are wasting your time then kick them. Thats ALL you have to do. You don't need to put them on blast or anything like that. It'll just get you in shit anyway. So for the sake of your accounts... just kick and live life. No reason to give them ammo you know?

[Angus-Beef]

You're right. The only issue here is his naming and shaming. The nico nico people named and shamed too.. thats why SE were banning people.SE isn't banning people for laughing at the dumb stuff in PF.. if that were the case then everyone on this site is dead cause we have a topic doing just that thats over 2000 pages long. So everyone memeing SE is overstepping is stupid at best and -seriously- at worst. SE isn't and hasn't overstepped any lines and people saying they are just being outraged for no reason. Like I said before, don't be a dick and you'll be fine. Trust me.

Tiny edit. I say this cause you can't control other people. You can not make someone do over 6k DPS, you can't make them practice and you can't make them care. That's on them. If they are in your party and are wasting your time then kick them. Thats ALL you have to do. You don't need to put them on blast or anything like that. It'll just get you in shit anyway. So for the sake of your accounts... just kick and live life. No reason to give them ammo you know?

I'm still in the camp that to avoid all of this make it clear cut what's casual and what isn't and create more content for the none casual players.

The biggest flaw this game has is not making sure there's a separation of said content given the skill required. Due to the mentality of *everyone can do it* it will always lead back to this place.

In the end I do t see the issue with calling out someone obviously looking for carries. But I also see nothing wrong with being blunt.

[Melichoir]

I suspect that the reason for that is mostly the fact that almost in every MMO game, including FF14 (and probably especially FF14) so called casuals make up from 80 to 95% of playerbase. The amount of toxic players in two categories is probably the same in terms of percentage in specific group, but when one of them highly outweighs another in population, you have higher chance to meet toxic people in a group that is bigger at least because non-toxic players are mostly just silent, you don't even notice them most of the time, while rotten apple is often right before your sight and makes you annoyed on top of that, so it just sticks to the memory.

While this is true, I think the problem is perception vs reality. The trope is Raiders are all egotistical clowns who will berate adn belittle you for not knowing the smallest nuance in the game or not achieving their level of gameplay. That persistant trope is far from what I see and experience.

Its worth noting though that the toxic type I tend see most isnt the people who are easily offended, but the people who think theyre better than they are and get angry and beligerant towards other players that dont meet their perceived level of self skill and standards. These would be the type of players who go into e1s cause a wipe or two, then yell at other players to do better or to listen to their strat cause "it's better". It;s the people who rage quit after the 4th attempt on something, saying they dont have time for scrubs. The same people who when they get one clear think that they are the best and are above feedback or suggestions. Or react ultra negatively and talk trash when someone is trying to remain positive despite setbacks. It's this particular brand of toxicity that I see most.

Frankly, most players are pretty chill. New players will generally react positively to suggestions, veteran players tend to be pretty nice and like helping out other players. Its that middle ground that gets to be an issue. The group of people who want to be the hardcore raider but haven't yet learned to own up to their own shortcomings and improve; instead opting to blame other players or game mechanics.

[monk-dps]

I'm still in the camp that to avoid all of this make it clear cut what's casual and what isn't and create more content for the none casual players.

The biggest flaw this game has is not making sure there's a separation of said content given the skill required. Due to the mentality of *everyone can do it* it will always lead back to this place.

In the end I do t see the issue with calling out someone obviously looking for carries. But I also see nothing wrong with being blunt.

I'm blunt in real life to a point I only have 3 friends so I'm not saying pat all the people on the heads. But being blunt has a whole different kind of cans you really don't want opened all the time. And dealing with people you don't know and cant' control is one of them. It's one thing to be blunt in my static, or with my family - the ones I can stand anyway- or my friends. As those are people that know me and know I'm not pulling punches if I need to say something. On the other hand, that random whm who didn't heal me because she was too lazy to hit cure or something 2 days ago? Me being blunt to her will do nothing if not land me a 10 day ban or a day in jail because she can't handle someone being blunt with her online.

The true of it is simply this. You can't control other people, I don't care how blunt you or I am. That don't mean a thing to these people. Just walk away and rant to your friends. This is really ALL you can do.

[KalinOrthos]

I'm still in the camp that to avoid all of this make it clear cut what's casual and what isn't and create more content for the none casual players.

The biggest flaw this game has is not making sure there's a separation of said content given the skill required. Due to the mentality of *everyone can do it* it will always lead back to this place.

In the end I do t see the issue with calling out someone obviously looking for carries. But I also see nothing wrong with being blunt.

Why make it clear cut? So assholes can toe the line of being a jerk to other players then say "Oh, but I didn't break any rules"? That's an awful idea. The spirit of the rule is far more important than the letter; if someone is being an asshole and either harassing or inciting harassment, they gotta go. It's really, REALLY not that hard to not be a jerk to other people, and if you're really frustrated, it's not that hard to not name and shame. Just kick, vent if needed, and move on.

[Melichoir]

Why make it clear cut? So assholes can toe the line of being a jerk to other players then say "Oh, but I didn't break any rules"? That's an awful idea. The spirit of the rule is far more important than the letter; if someone is being an asshole and either harassing or inciting harassment, they gotta go. It's really, REALLY not that hard to not be a jerk to other people, and if you're really frustrated, it's not that hard to not name and shame. Just kick, vent if needed, and move on.

Theres give an take. The give is that people shouldnt be a jerk, but the take is that there has to be a line. You cant set a line, have someone toe it, and then punish them arbitrarily with the caveat of there being an exception as to why. For example, if the rules say you cant harass or disparage someone in a racist way, you can call someone a jerk and be done with it but you cant call them a racist word. Both are technically being mean to the person, but there is a line to what goes to far.

Or if were gonna consider extreme exceptions like Arthars case - He wouldve been fine talking about someone without giving a description or name or any pertinent information to identify that person, but crossed the line when he made sure to make the name known. The line is identifying the person and then going to town on them verbally. It gets more damning cause personally I think he knew the rules but went to do it on Twitch specifically to get around the exact wording or precedent of the rules, while fully understanding the rules were intended to stop the very thing he was doing. the spirit of the rules was anti harassment/naming-and-shaming, so he tried to be clever by doing it on twitch. In the full literal sense, he didnt violate any ToS or precedent directly, but it was clear he was using a loophole to do exactly what the rules were meant to prevent.

[tdb]

You see a lot of what you're saying is right, until we have context on the BLM, a leech creeping around JP for carries only doing 6k. He wasn't respectful, he wasn't considering other people's time, and the whole of a server seemed to not care.

No functioning adult is gonna sugar coat reality for people, things aint sweet and coming to clear parties under performing is the definition of casual toxicity. People want respect but don't even give any before asking for it in return.

TBH the game does not make it very clear if you're underperforming. You don't see how much damage other players are doing. The aggro order in the party list doesn't tell you if you're just a little bit behind or doing half the DPS you should. Stone, Sky, Sea is well off to the side, and even if you do go there it's one thing to perform your rotation against a passive striking dummy and quite another to do it in the heat of battle while dodging mechanics.

The rotations for different classes are not that hard to figure out by reading the ability descriptions, so I'd like to think the average player is capable of doing that. But for those that aren't, there isn't any indication that you're doing something wrong. Maybe it takes a while to kill enemies while questing, but if you never get to observe a more skilled player killing the same enemies, you might think it's normal.

You might think by the time someone makes it to savage raids they'd have been told what they're doing wrong and how to improve. But a lot of the time friendly advice falls on deaf ears, so a lot of people stop trying. So it's plausible for someone to get carried all the way to endgame without realizing they're being carried. Therefore I wouldn't call an underperforming player toxic unless their attitude indicates they're more malicious than ignorant (no idea what was the case here since I didn't see the video before it was taken down). Of course that doesn't entitle them to weigh down the group, but there are civil and polite ways of letting a player know they should improve their skill before coming back.