Balance, Accessibility, Diversity

[Wayfinder3]

the problem is the endgame when it becomes "raid or die". when you have the "savage" raiders coming here complaining that X class does more DPS than Y class. if you open up the "endgame" to more playstyles less people would care about balance.

look at a game like Path of Exile sure there is balancing but there is never a focus on "this class does too much, buff my class to match"

It’s funny how people are ignoring this stance because this is THE reason balance gets held to such a high standard. If there were alternative methods of high end content designed to challenge people that weren’t so DPS heavy by designed. You’d see jobs that aren’t very dps friendly but still contribute to an alternative setting take root there.

Say we get a exploratory raid like content similar to eureka where it’s not a bunch of isolated fights, but requires exploring and clearing certain objectives and killing difficult targets to navigate the duty. RDM would be very much viable in that field as opposed to BLM who is viable in the current landscape of raiding. Food for thought really, should we complaint about jobs being the same, or should we complain about the content not being diverse and challenging enough to bring out their diversity.

[Vendalwind]

Thinking on what wayfinder just said. Subdivided mechanics in raids that didnt require, but incentivized certain Classes would be really interesting. Shot in the dark idea but

(Scout mobility mechanics)What if dancers speed was enhanced in raids by 25% and same as ninja. Have a mechanic that is only completable by a ninja or dancer because of distance. that when completed grants a dps or alternate boon to the party.

(Heal check tank coop mechanics) mechanics where a healer has to heal an object to grant the party a dps or alternate boon, only completable if they are given significant focus time to do so via the team applying mitigations with perfection.

(Jumper mechanics) mechanic that can only be completed by a drg, brd, or sam via their backwards jump. Requires landing on a new platform via targetables that also has an eye mechanic so that you cant face it while jumping or you die.

Its off topic but would be a fun diversifying aspect to some fights. That could also be used with specificity to bring up some classes value in at least some of the fights in a tier.

[Vulcann]

give us alternate end games besides just savage raiding.

things like Mapping from Path of Exile or Rifts from Diablo 3. playable with others or trusts. then you can really diversify the classes instead of trying to fit them all into the raid scene.

[ForteNightshade]

give us alternate end games besides just savage raiding.

things like Mapping from Path of Exile or Rifts from Diablo 3. playable with others or trusts. then you can really diversify the classes instead of trying to fit them all into the raid scene.

The issue then becomes how do you offer rewards worthwhile enough for people to do that content? If it's equivalent ilvl to Savage, then people will opt for whatever is the easier of the two.

[Mahoukenshi]

Games are about overcoming challenges and solving problems - if there's nothing to overcome or solve then what is there really to have fun from?

Fun is relative, even though I can see your point. My priorities when gaming are, for example, probably vastly different than yours as I couldn't care less about "overcoming challenges" or consider difficult (or only difficult) content as "fun". This may make my mindset not compatible with some single-player games or the "generally accepted" MMO mentality of end game, but also doesn't make it wrong per-say. With MMOs appealing to the emtional side of players with powre fantasy, self-insert and wish-fulfilling tropes, stuff like "fun", flair etc do, of course, collide with the hard cold side of numbers. Or else, damage jobs wouldn't be as abundant and massively "overplayed", compared to tank/healer or support jobs, even though the numbers would theoretically be the same.

[Deceptus]

As long as any given role is within 10% of the other roles I consider it balanced. Within 5% is ideal.

So I'd say strive for that, then work on Diversity/accessibility.

[Satarn]

give us alternate end games besides just savage raiding.

things like Mapping from Path of Exile or Rifts from Diablo 3. playable with others or trusts. then you can really diversify the classes instead of trying to fit them all into the raid scene.

While it would be nice to have more varied content in the game, this issue has nothing to do with the topic. Balance in savage isn't detrimental to the diversity of job gameplay, it might be to diversity of capabilities, but this can also be achieved with asymmetrical balance.

You also can't compare balance and gameplay of games like PoE and D3, which aren't even the same genre as FFXIV. You're talking about loot-based aRPGs with tons of different build options, completely different gear progression and no trinity roles. Nothing from those games translates into FFXIV. Hell, "gameplay" in D3 isn't even about actual gameplay per se, because that is just spamming one or two skills most of the time - it's about theory-crafting your build and collecting the gear for it.

Rifts in D3 were one of the most boring things I had the displeasure of playing. You know why? Because they're not meant to be engaging - they're just masses of mobs to test your build on and the fun part of the game is making that build and seeing it shred things.

We're talking about diversity of gameplay in an mmorpg with a trinity system and linear gear progression - if you want to play a looter aRPG then play one, instead of trying to turn a completely different game into your preffered genre, because you don't understand how different types of games could work.

Fun is relative, even though I can see your point. My priorities when gaming are, for example, probably vastly different than yours as I couldn't care less about "overcoming challenges" or consider difficult (or only difficult) content as "fun".

You are overestimating what I mean by "challenge" here. Not everybody wants to do the most difficult content obviously, but whether consciously or not, humans naturally enjoy problem solving and that's why games are considered a fun activity. The thing to overcome might be as simple as stacking three icons of the same color together, but it still requires your input and therefore certain effort, no matter how small. Even the simplest of games require certain limitations to be enjoyable, because they need to be a problem to solve.

That's also why majority of people dislikes grinding one thing for a long time - it quickly becomes repetitive and boring, because there's no new challenge to overcome.

[Yorumi]

To m the problem with "accessibility" is that there's a segment of the population that just wants content design to be "push button, win game." Lets face it here even at their absolute most complex the jobs in this game could be played by someone in a coma for normal mode content. So why did anything need to get even more "accessible?" Here's the thing I bet there's a large segment of the population that finds the classes in their current state too complex because they involve more than 2 buttons. The other conundrum with accessibility is that classes only become somewhat complex when it comes to the mechanics of savage raids. Why the heck would we care about making savage raids accessible to anyone but advanced players?

I wouldn't be surprised to find out there are 10 year olds who have cleared savage content. Certainly there are teenagers who have. To me that makes any accessibility argument moot. Anyone claiming a job in this game, even at their absolute most complex, is too complex just doesn't need to be playing the game. I don't want to sound like some arrogant gatekeeper but come on put a modicum of effort into the game.

Moving on to another subject, savage balance. Sure keep tuning keep tweaking, try to get things in balance. However, people focus far too much on this. People get obsessed with numbers and unless you're going for world first who cares what job someone takes to a raid. I'm of the belief that it shouldn't be too hard to find 7 like-minded people who want to do savage raids and are serious about it. You're probably going to get more mileage out of someone who loves playing a lower dps job than getting that same person to play a higher dps job they hate. I think some people just spend too much time scaring themselves about dps numbers.

So that's a long way of saying diversity of job design is where it should be at.

[Renkei]

This is a weak argument considering i've played games that have been out far longer then FFXIV and have far less fights far less Variety and everything just ends up being clones of each-other. gear wise. I don't think the balance is to bad. games that lack Variety end up taking the high risk approach for everything and then servery dulls down healer and tank roles by making tanks meat-shields and healers have no dps skills. Things can't be completely balanced because then things become imbalanced, Sometimes there needs to be a higher reward for risks but don't have the risks rewards outweigh the risks, i think there is enough Diversity, right now at least you can play what you want and not get instantly kicked for it i think the community makes up for this, because i've played other mmo's that if you didn't do what everyone else did in terms of what is considered "Optimal" Then they'd kick you in a heart beat even if the dungeon is a beginner dungeon, Diversity is what keeps people playing jobs, Id rather have people who really like their job, versus someone that just plays something because "its the best"

[Vulcann]

this issue has nothing to do with the topic. Balance in savage isn't detrimental to the diversity

actually it is, when a game's only endgame is raiding every class needs to be "raid viable" and the easiest way to make every class "raid viable" is by making each class in a specific archtype very similar yet with maybe a couple special actions that lets them be a bit different. this has been happening in every game that goes the "raid focus" route.

game starts off with a unique and diverse class lineup
game introduces raiding
raiders complain when specific classes are more useful than others
developers start removing the uniqueness from classes to satisfy raiders
raiders complain more
rinse and repeat.

you open up other ways to acquire gear besides raiding and you can start adding unique and diverse classes.