Will you accept total balance for the cost of diversity in gameplay?

[Nedkel]

Just looking at this subforum and reading through many complains about certain DPS being less or more powerful i just tought will you guys be fine with tank-level of design changes?
I mean a total balance between jobs where difference in overall performance is not bigger than 1%, but for the cost of diversity and identity of gameplay to the point where you could just master one DPS job and you already know how to play all other dps jobs that kind of balance.
I was a main tank for the great part of my gaming experience in this game, lets say they are blue dps with some extra features today thats it. What they have done in 5.0 patch was making all tanks play as close to each other as possible, there are at least 20 skills in each tank skill kit that you technically say they are the same or working in similar manner, this brought to us balance everyone has been asking for, but also made all 4 of them playing really similar to each other.
Now imagine if ninja was slow as BLM, or every job was slow as BLM, and all jobs have same 1-2-3 combo or two combos, sprinkled with some MP or gauge costs on oGCD and thats basically it, not deep mechanics, no diversity nothing.

Will you be fine to make all dps jobs play similarly like tanks do or healers to some extent. You could see the effect of it today, where certain mechanics are being taken away from DPS jobs in order to make them performing as close to the others as possible.
Is it worth making certain jobs play the same for a cost of 500-700 dps more which does not matter in grand scheme of things? Just asking.

[Allooutrick]

I know I wouldn't be. I can't wait for the day that people are content with some imbalance and prefer the developers flex their creative muscles.

[Ryaz]

Yes. I say remove all buttons except one that says "ATTACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!". Make each player invincible so they don't have to worry about mechanics and all they have to do is mash that one button faster to succeed.
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But seriously, balance in this game isn't that bad. Like all MMOS, numbers are heavily skewed by different fight mechanics and player skill. Yet people will always cry that the sky is falling if their job isn't the very best of them all.

SE has done a really good job of balancing the DPS classes while letting them keep unique playing mechanics. It should stay that way. And honestly, even tanks aren't that bad. Paladin feels pretty different from GNB with its physical/magic rotation vs the GNB combos and cartridge system.

[Yorumi]

Short answer, creativity is more important than balance.

The thing though to understand is there's a few things at play and it involves all the different personalities of people. Anything that's unbalanced should be fixed, but because of the complexity of these games that's a moving target. When one class is fixed another is too weak or too powerful. So there's always going to be discussion of balance. There's never going to be a point where they say it's done for good. A lot of people don't understand that point, and also get very passionate about their class. There was a time in my life where I was like that but part of maturing is learning some of these lessons.

Another thing that happens is sort of a fear of missing out. "My chosen class is on the weaker side so I can't do savage." Given that SE is good at making sure every class is viable anyone kicking you out for your chosen class is just not someone you want to be raiding with. I mean I might ask people to change if we have multiples of the same class but otherwise I'd say the problem is more one of get good while having fun, not the chosen classes. When I've done raiding, and I'll do more again, I tell people it's far more important to be having fun because raiding involves a lot of stress. You have to perform at your best and you're going to fail a lot. I'm going to get far better performance if everyone is on classes they love, not what someone says is technically the ultimate comp.

[Satarn]

Can we stop pretending that this is the actual choice that has to be made? With rDPS numbers easily available, balancing the output is really just a matter of potency changes, it doesn't need to alter gameplay at all. Looking at 99th percentile you can see multiple pairs of jobs achieving very close rDPS numbers despite playing nothing alike.

Saying that homogenization of tank gameplay is the effect of trying to achieve balance is a fallacy, it's a scapegoat. Tanks were actually pretty well balanced at the end of SB(4.3 and beyond), despite very different rotations and even differences in how their defenses worked. Merely nerfing WAR's dps slightly and giving DRK Missionary back then, would've made balance near perfect, as the job already had its niche of having strongest personal mitigation. Heck - if they kept 4.1 WAR then they wouldn't even need to nerf it and the playstyles would be even more varied.

Homogenization of playstyles isn't the "inevitable" effect of striving for balance like some like to suggest - it's the result of people complaining about varying difficulty and devs trying to make every single job "fun for everyone", rather than letting specific jobs cater to specific groups of players.

[Nedkel]

Can we stop pretending that this is the actual choice that has to be made? With rDPS numbers easily available, balancing the output is really just a matter of potency changes, it doesn't need to alter gameplay at all. Looking at 99th percentile you can see multiple pairs of jobs achieving very close rDPS numbers despite playing nothing alike.

Saying that homogenization of tank gameplay is the effect of trying to achieve balance is a fallacy, it's a scapegoat. Tanks were actually pretty well balanced at the end of SB(4.3 and beyond), despite very different rotations and even differences in how their defenses worked. Merely nerfing WAR's dps slightly and giving DRK Missionary back then, would've made balance near perfect, as the job already had its niche of having strongest personal mitigation. Heck - if they kept 4.1 WAR then they wouldn't even need to nerf it and the playstyles would be even more varied.

Homogenization of playstyles isn't the "inevitable" effect of striving for balance like some like to suggest - it's the result of people complaining about varying difficulty and devs trying to make every single job "fun for everyone", rather than letting specific jobs cater to specific groups of players.

The reality is, SE did not know how to change the tanks and we end up with copy-paste solution.
This is a reality, so its really a choice between "perfect balance, no fun" and "fun for a cost of balance".

Tank werent terrible before 5.0 kicked in, but after that they are really really really well balanced, but they also play the same.

[Alaeacus]

"Balance" is a relative thing and is NOT statistically measurable, unless every class has absolutely no difference. Every single person is going to have their opinion on "balance", meaning it is an unattainable goal. If all classes have no difference, we'll see how long this game keeps their players.

Diversity is LITERALLY a way to be different or unique from you neighbor. Who are these people screaming for people to be exactly the same? There should be clear Pros and Cons to every class or race decision.

[D_C]

The problem is that the game design doesn’t alliw fer flexibility. There be ONE metric that matters - damage. At no point do ya need to stun or sleep targets. At no point do ya need ta slow, root or kite to a significant degree. Never do they ask people ta survive on their own or anythin’. Incomin’ damage be predictable an healing is overpowered. If utility ain’t about damage, it might’s well not exist. This ain’t like other games where ya can say “well this one does less damage but has all this other stuff”. That other stuff don’t matter. Even big things like mobility fer damage ain’t seen as a fair trade, look at all the archers bawlin’ their brains out.

Now, don’t get me wrong ‘ere. I ain’t sayin’ they messed up balance enough now that nobody currently can do anythin’ except the top o’ the heap, that’s just the community blowin’ shite out o’ proportion as usual. But they keep designin’ everythin’ ta be simple just so everythin’ is viable an’ nothin’ is intetestin’. If ya think tanks have it bad, an’ they do, just look what happened ta healers fer the same sake. Ryaz was jokin’ ‘bout givin’ everyone one button, but that’s exactly what they got fer 90% of the time.

[Gula]

Yes. I say remove all buttons except one that says "ATTACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!". Make each player invincible so they don't have to worry about mechanics and all they have to do is mash that one button faster to succeed.
.
.
.
.
.
.


But seriously, balance in this game isn't that bad. Like all MMOS, numbers are heavily skewed by different fight mechanics and player skill. Yet people will always cry that the sky is falling if their job isn't the very best of them all.

SE had done a really good job of balancing the DPS classes while letting them keep unique playing mechanics. It should stay that way. And honestly, even tanks aren't that bad. Paladin feels pretty different from GNB with its physical/magic rotation vs the GNB combos and cartridge system.

As someone who sticks to MCH for DPS, I have comfort in knowing I'm not really missing anything or being excluded because of other jobs. I'll take balance and gameplay over numbers, because I want to tank, but don't care to be an "optimal" tank.

[CrimsonGunner]

Will you be fine to make all dps jobs play similarly like tanks do or healers to some extent. You could see the effect of it today, where certain mechanics are being taken away from DPS jobs in order to make them performing as close to the others as possible.

do you see people lining up to play healers in content other then just get them to 80 and be done with that?
do you have long queue as playing a healer cause there are plenty of people in the queue?

the answer is no and the reason is because they made the jobs unfun all for the sake of balance. now you say play similarly like tanks have but check the forums and see how much hatred this brought.
didn't you so called encourage having more tank damage so you would feel you help more in content so how would you feel if your jobs would be reduced to 1 button to press for the sake of balance? as a healer it definitely doesn't make me feel more involved, in fact the only time i feel fun with healer is when my party sucks and eat every mechanic cause otherwise i am stuck pressing 1 button and you cant say just switch to a different healer job cause all of them have the same gameplay which sucks.

people play different jobs cause they offer different and unique playstyle and gameplay. strip the jobs from that and you get basically 1 job x 17 ,it would make the point of having multiple jobs meaningless.