PLDs: You have Clemency for a reason.

[SleepyNeko]

I'm not sure if everyone commenting here has even played tank or tried Pugging not with their friend on VC. I've leveled all my tanks and healers to 80 and everytime Holm appears on leveling roulette you need to gauge the healer before you pull. This is the first dg of ShB so there is no telling the quality of players you'll get, dps or healer, so I always check with the first pull. If I had to use all my CDs for the first pull, then it is not going to be wall to wall for the next pull.

It is definitely not easy to heal wall to wall in this dg especially if you are not WHM. AST had been buffed abit so its gotten better but prior to the buff it is going to wipe with pugs 5 times out of 10 on wall to wall pulls and the double packs with slow gremlins. SCH is the worst because they can't keep you up at all with how little the fairy heals and even spamming adlo you'll oom so you def can't chain pull the next pack.

This is strictly for Holminster Switch because you'll have bad gear synced down and you get unsynced players due to it being a leveling dg. If you are talking about expert roulettes then wall to wall is easy as pie. First check if your healer is a WHM, then check if they are synced, then check if they are full Augmented Scaeven.

[Nedkel]

Y'all seem to be going hard in the paint on op for no reason. As a tank I utilize every ability I have, but then again; I also tend to not do ridiculous asspulls and stress the healer out (as I play scholar as my second class and understand the stress of a bad tank.) So, idunno. Maybe the example in the first post should learn to tank.

Because its a really bad habbit that will only hurt PLD and never under any circumstances PLD should not be asked to use clemency it is a complete waste.

Paladins magic rotation makes up for majority of his total damage in dungeons, holy circle making first place in the grand scheme of things for dps, with confiteur it does over 30% of total dps on PLD.
Clemency without Requiecast is healing only 20% of PLD total HP this amount is less than 1 auto attack rotation of a pull, where healer single spells could heal for much more than that. Using clemency on PLD you are hurting your rotation, because PLD is making just enough MP to let requietcast to proc everytime its up and pld should always start from 100% MP since its additional boosted spell in the window.
Healing only job is not hard especially with a tank that knows what to do and according to the OP saying the tank used Hallowed Ground somewhere before 1 boss clearly shows this tank was experienced player who knew how to run this specific dungeon, proccing hallowed ground to give some time for healer to prepare for big damage is what experienced PLD should do in this dungeon with this one large pull. But you never know unless you see the log which does not exist so its just pointless play of guessing what really happened. What i know for sure is PLD doesnt need to use clemency to keep himself up, thats it.

OP should just let it go, it was one dungeon, we all had that one dungeon being bad, people learn on the mistakes you know, maybe that PLD didnt turn his CD, who knows.

[Almandaragal]

There seem to be a number of somewhat extreme sides here, but there are also a lot of valid points as well. For context, I main RDM, but fully enjoy and as a close second play my DRK. I've also leveled WHM to 80, but healing is currently where I feel least comfortable, probably because I was also playing the "barely adequate gear" game while leveling it up from 70-80. So, I know how it is on both tank and healer side of this dungeon, and know how it is with full Scaevan healing for it as well.

That said, some main takeaways for the tank side of things in regards to this particular situation:
- If your healer isn't synced/capped with good gear, you simply don't do that triple pull at the start. The bears are not fun, and if I'm remembering right, you have that big pack of little scorpions at the end, which is enough to deal with on their own most of the time. If all pieces aren't perfectly in place, a wall to wall off the bat is fairly unreasonable in most Duty Finder parties.
- If Clemency will save you a wipe, especially when there has clearly been difficulty prior in big pulls, just use it. Whether or not you should have to generally doesn't matter, because a mistake or mis-estimate was made. Roll with it. You have the skill, might as well use it when it's needed.

Some takeaways for the healer side:
- As someone who had to struggle through some seriously bad tanks during leveling in ShB for my WHM, it is absolutely not the responsibility of the tank or anyone else to babysit the healer and know when everything is or isn't on cooldown. An experienced tank who knows healing classes well may be able to keep track of that, but most of us aren't going to know the ins and outs of every healer. My SMN/SCH are only at 41, so I'm fully unacquainted with the intricacies of SCH, and don't see the II icon as meaning that one JUST used Aetherflow. At the low levels of play I have on them, that simply means I have two stacks, and I was often able to always have stacks ready to use when I needed. Keeping in mind that not everyone is as familiar with your class as you are is important. Tanks have plenty to keep track of as well, and "did Aetherflow get cast long enough ago to have it up again?" isn't really something you should expect a Duty Finder Tank to mentally tally. Savage and Ultimate? Sure, elevated play. But Leveling Roulette? Not so much.
- Sprint is not only apparently standard for tanks now, but pretty well expected. It's a bit new to me too, since it wasn't as big a deal in SB when I was tanking, but now it is generally expected that if you're pulling more than one pack, you sprint. It reduces damage taken because tank is out of enemy melee range, and allows the pack to settle while the DPS catches up. Likewise, now, it is pretty much expected that if the tank sprints, so doth the healer. Is it more stressful? It can be, especially if you're undergeared. But there are good reasons for it, so this part you will likely have to get used to.

Overall, it's good to remember that gear is huge for Tanks and Healers, so this will get easier as you have more level appropriate gear, as well as better skills. However, you really can't expect others to keep track of your cooldowns. Did you keep track of when all of their mitigation was on or off cooldown? If so, great for you, but their stuff is also persisting icons that you see for awhile, whereas instant casts are harder to keep track of if you don't see them. I don't when I tank; I just make sure I spread out my cooldowns and slow it down if the healer seems to be having issues (which is different than letting me get low before popping a big heal). This situation was a combination of a lot of crappy things on both ends, maybe even on all if the DPS were taking too long, which is another potential factor in stressful healing dungeons. The only real thing that could have potentially averted this was communication, which seems to not have happened from your post. No "can you do smaller pulls please?", no "my CD are all gone, gotta go light next pull", nothing. I've even, as a tank, notified my party that the next set would be singles because I was out of CDs. It can solve a TON of problems to simply ask/request/inform your party of things.

[SleepyNeko]

Also to add to what others have said already, if you are going to die then its better to use Clemency than to get extra dps from a skill you don't have (confiteur and instant cast from Requiecast) and if you wipe all you dps is gone due to the mobs resetting so its all pointless.

Basically this thread is about tanks dying when they could've been saved if they chose to sacrifice their personal damage for saving the run and also the "All tanks and healers can handle all wall to wall pulls at all levels in all dungeons at all times or you are not playing healer properly" mentality.

Unrelated note: Also not sure if some PLD don't know that before they get their instant cast trait they can't block/parry during their magic rotation because they are casting so they are taking more damage and nullifying their own shelltron.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Also to add to what others have said already, if you are going to die then its better to use Clemency than to get extra dps from a skill you don't have (confiteur and instant cast from Requiecast) and if you wipe all you dps is gone due to the mobs resetting so its all pointless.

This is actually somewhat inaccurate, in some cases, mobs may be in fact close to dead, if you're in req spamming Holy circle, you may knock off a few mobs before a wipe, making the next go around a little less stressful.

Also on a couple of side notes to other comments, why do people seemingly make everything sound so doom and gloom if you wipe, like seriously it's kinda sad. Wipes happen, it's part of the game.

I will also point out, people talking about syncing down and some such, but it was very common in all the new levelling dungeons for tanks to pull wall to wall, it's not something that has recently become a thing, and especially in Holm which is no exception. So using syncing as an excuse is pretty weak for being unable to handle a pull. Gear and skill are probably the two most important factors as a few people have mentioned.

I'll be perfectly honest, unless a healer specifically requests lesser packs I will go wall to wall, because using a single pack is probably the worst way to guage, because some dps will be like that it and end up single targetting because it ain't worth AoEing, and thus taking longer than mass pulling, and use up resources inefficiently.

[NealSnow]

And hardcore raiders can't fathom why everyone else calls them toxic, or worse for that matter. The talk of dps lose in a fucking lvling dungeon is just ridiculous. Reminds me of people who freak out if a tanks near death and you just use 1 vercure to make sure the healer gets their heal off.

If in a dungeon you wanna still play like it's savage fine, do your best but remember this is an online game where gear is importent. I was sch doing do a castle, I was not bis cause I was just on a lvling spree so using just dungeon gear. I told the tank this yet he kept claiming "I play sch I know what it's capable of" yes as do I, however I probably was meeting just minimum requirements so...

And as a bonus I main tanks and I'm actually kind enough to ask the healer if they can do big or small, because it's polite to ask. Don't have to but it costs nothing to be a decent human being to another, does it?

So OP, don't worry too much about these peeps giving you a hard time. They say wanting a tank to slow down imposes on that playstyle, but it can so both ways. Expecting big pulls is also imposing on another, just because big pulls are a thing, doesn't mean that's how the dungeon is designed to be ran as the correct way. Both are acceptable.

[SleepyNeko]

This is actually somewhat inaccurate, in some cases, mobs may be in fact close to dead, if you're in req spamming Holy circle, you may knock off a few mobs before a wipe, making the next go around a little less stressful.

Also on a couple of side notes to other comments, why do people seemingly make everything sound so doom and gloom if you wipe, like seriously it's kinda sad. Wipes happen, it's part of the game.

I will also point out, people talking about syncing down and some such, but it was very common in all the new levelling dungeons for tanks to pull wall to wall, it's not something that has recently become a thing, and especially in Holm which is no exception. So using syncing as an excuse is pretty weak for being unable to handle a pull. Gear and skill are probably the two most important factors as a few people have mentioned.

I'll be perfectly honest, unless a healer specifically requests lesser packs I will go wall to wall, because using a single pack is probably the worst way to guage, because some dps will be like that it and end up single targetting because it ain't worth AoEing, and thus taking longer than mass pulling, and use up resources inefficiently.

I think it is pretty accurate because I said if you are going to die. If you are going to die then you definitely aint going the kill the mobs fast enough. I am certain that one clemency will have a higher chance of keeping you alive than 1 holy circle in most I am about to die situations.

Also all of my points are strictly about Holm Switch as per this thread.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

I think it is pretty accurate because I said if you are going to die. If you are going to die then you definitely aint going the kill the mobs fast enough. I am certain that one clemency will have a higher chance of keeping you alive than 1 holy circle in most I am about to die situations.

Also all of my points are strictly about Holm Switch as per this thread.

Not really accurate tbh, I've been in quite a few instances in my years of playing where it was a "yup we're gonna wipe" scenario, and some adds not all, were low enough to finish off before we wiped.

1 Clemency cast is probably not gonna help that much in the long run, if you end up in the situation to begin with where you need it, it's probably gonna happen again in that instance. Usually means the tank isn't using their CDs correctly, or secondly, under-geared, thirdly, the healer is lacking in skill, or fourthly, DPS is lacking and causing pulls to take longer than they should. It's heavily likely that resources have worn thin that it's just not that recoverable, and arguably better to take out low hp mobs so you have less on the next go around. While also having the benefit of CDs being reset as a positive if you do wipe.

And every point I made in my previous post can be applied directly to holm switch, but can also be applied to other dungeons in general, so your last point is moot.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

And hardcore raiders can't fathom why everyone else calls them toxic, or worse for that matter. The talk of dps lose in a fucking lvling dungeon is just ridiculous. Reminds me of people who freak out if a tanks near death and you just use 1 vercure to make sure the healer gets their heal off.

If in a dungeon you wanna still play like it's savage fine, do your best but remember this is an online game where gear is importent. I was sch doing do a castle, I was not bis cause I was just on a lvling spree so using just dungeon gear. I told the tank this yet he kept claiming "I play sch I know what it's capable of" yes as do I, however I probably was meeting just minimum requirements so...

And as a bonus I main tanks and I'm actually kind enough to ask the healer if they can do big or small, because it's polite to ask. Don't have to but it costs nothing to be a decent human being to another, does it?

So OP, don't worry too much about these peeps giving you a hard time. They say wanting a tank to slow down imposes on that playstyle, but it can so both ways. Expecting big pulls is also imposing on another, just because big pulls are a thing, doesn't mean that's how the dungeon is designed to be ran as the correct way. Both are acceptable.

I mean nothing toxic has been said, there has been some critical discussion of OP's account of the matter, and a general consensus, that you shouldn't expect a paladin to use clemency to prevent a wipe.

And to take from the casual player base and their in general more toxic natured responses, "you don't pay my sub".

[Maeka]

Eh, Clemency heals a pretty large chunk of HP. If it crits, it's a rather large portion of their health, nearly half their health, and it just might keep them alive until the next Aetherflow/Essential Dignity/Solace.

Aetherflow is 60 seconds.

If a PLD gets down to like 10-20% of their HP left and dumps a Clemency while the healer is chain-casting Physick or Adlo or whatever, there's a chance that Aetherflow is within 10 seconds of coming up. If Aetherflow comes off cooldown before the PLD drops dead, that's an Excog and 2 Lustrates which should last the rest of the pull until the DPS finishes the rest of the mobs off, easy.

If it's an AST, ED is even shorter, and/or it allows for more Benefic II spam to help bridge the gap if something is going wrong, and/or buy more time for the DPS to finish a mob or two off which drastically reduces the amount of damage the PLD is taking.

Or in case of a WHM, every 30 (or is it 45? I haven't played WHM in awhile) seconds is a new flower and a new flower is a free Cure II. Or maybe Tetra would come off of cooldown, which is another free Cure II.

The point is, one Clemency can buy you several seconds, and several seconds is a LOT of time when it comes to healer abilities coming off of cooldown which could save a wipe.

There's really no reason to go "oh well I'm gonna die I'm not even gonna try to save myself". It just seems so stupid. At least try?