Red Mage is top tier - [job effectiveness = player skill]

[Silverquick]

That's the point though - even now; you're still massively undergeared and there is nothing to suggest you have any good experience on this job. The 2nd Eden kill is from yesterday. How can you claim the job is fine when you barely even know what you're doing on it.

And no, it's not top level gear, just regular tome, crafted and yorha gear, something anyone could get pretty easily.
The only difference between my log and yours is individual performance. They're both calculated the exact same way. The link was intentional. It's to show how far you are behind the curve to produce so little.

You are mistaking something here.
Never in this thread did I say I was somehow superior to anyone. The person who keeps claiming that is the very individual the poster above talked about, who was acting "childish and goading".

What started this, was me saying simply... yeah I'm not seeing too much difference between RDM and SMN single target damage either, agreeing with the poster above me.

Magically and mystically that turned into me supposedly claiming I was uber or something.
Someone else jumped in and said... But FF Logs says.... etc... .

I do believe at that point I said this...

That's great and all.
But after personal experience now with RDM.
I simply do not and have never spent the majority of my time DPSing in a Raid. I'm doing one of three things, my time is divided between DPSing, Healing, and Raising.
So I cannot put much stock in FFlogs when it comes to measuring DPS from a RDM.

Go ahead and follow that specific conversation, its completely different from what you seem to believe.

[Wayfinder3]

You are mistaking something here.
Never in this thread did I say I was somehow superior to anyone. The person who keeps claiming that is the very individual the poster above talked about, who was acting "childish and goading".

What started this, was me saying simply... yeah I'm not seeing too much difference between RDM and SMN single target damage either, agreeing with the poster above me.

Magically and mystically that turned into me supposedly claiming I was uber or something.
Someone else jumped in and said... But FF Logs says.... etc... .

I do believe at that point I said this...

That's great and all.
But after personal experience now with RDM.
I simply do not and have never spent the majority of my time DPSing in a Raid. I'm doing one of three things, my time is divided between DPSing, Healing, and Raising.
So I cannot put much stock in FFlogs when it comes to measuring DPS from a RDM.

Go ahead and follow that specific conversation, its completely different from what you seem to believe.

There is a huge contradiction in your logic. You state that you can't trust Fflogs statistics on the single target comparison between RDM and SMN do to your own experiences (completely ignoring player skill) however, You're actually just putting too much stock in your own experience. You seem to believe that because YOU spend time playing rdm sub optimally and in dire DF situations, that is the norm for the job when thats absolutely ludicrous and there are thousands of RDMs that don't spend runs healing, and raising regardless of what you think. This is percisely why we don't balance off of personal feelings and experiences because that information is 100% skewed to the person making the claim, where as a site like fflogs takes the raw data and distributes it for constructive and competitive purposes. Thus far more suitable and, credible for job balance discussions

[Silverquick]

There is a huge contradiction in your logic. You state that you can't trust Fflogs statistics on the single target comparison between RDM and SMN do to your own experiences (completely ignoring player skill) however,

Would you like me to go back and repost the entire conversation string for you?

So... lets add some more of what I said after that... that does not include that certain person mentioned who was being "childish and goading".

ReiMakoto: If you're spending time doing that your team is really bad and they're gimping your damage, and is not an attitude to take to savage
Silverquick: Fair enough, but also consider that you were talking about an "average" from FF Logs... so you have to account for the fact a lot of Red Mage DPS being submitted probably also includes a lot of RDMs who have to do exactly what I said.

ReiMakoto: Even at the top end not the average red mage is behind
Silverquick: What you would have to do to get an accurate average of RDMs DPS would be to remove all samples of RDMs who use a heal or Res...
Then take the average of those specifically to get an accurate DPS number from RDM. And the pool is a little too small for that.

We can keep going if you like...

[Wayfinder3]

Would you like me to go back and repost the entire conversation string for you?

So... lets add some more of what I said after that... that does not include that certain person mentioned who was being "childish and goading".

ReiMakoto: If you're spending time doing that your team is really bad and they're gimping your damage, and is not an attitude to take to savage
Silverquick: Fair enough, but also consider that you were talking about an "average" from FF Logs... so you have to account for the fact a lot of Red Mage DPS being submitted probably also includes a lot of RDMs who have to do exactly what I said.

ReiMakoto: Even at the top end not the average red mage is behind
Silverquick: What you would have to do to get an accurate average of RDMs DPS would be to remove all samples of RDMs who use a heal or Res...
Then take the average of those specifically to get an accurate DPS number from RDM. And the pool is a little too small for that.



We can keep going if you like...

Sure dude but this doesn't make any sense, If you take a top end RDM parse and it's optimized, has no healing (besides dualcast prepping for added dps) or raising. then YOU"RE getting the accurate representation of RDMs dps in an optimized setting. Compare this to a SMN/BLM parse, you're still seeing a steep difference between them. There are many parses uploaded for RDM that aren't healing or raising so i fail to see why you believe that the RDM data is skewed because of healing and verraise.

When you compare a optimized no death RDM parse to a optimized no death SMN parse. You'll find the problem is that it's very difficult to justify rdm and thats the topic of all these RDM post that you misguidedly frequent with your ill-informed prattle.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...74/unknown.png

This post right here is your contradictory statement where you flat out say, you won't value fflogs statistics and averages because of your own experience

[Silverquick]

Sure dude but this doesn't make any sense, If you take a top end RDM parse and it's optimized, has no healing (besides dualcast prepping for added dps) or raising. then YOU"RE getting the accurate representation of RDMs dps in an optimized setting.

Alright since you requested I'll keep posting the conversation... again removing the individual that was being "childish and goading"
And More of the conversation after that...

LambdafishIf you are healing and rezzing as a RDM, you aren't even going to get a blue parse, let alone top parse, or even average. The pool is pretty big at 3000 parses over the past two weeks, which if you think that's too small, then it would actually lean away from your argument as those who would be healing and rezzing probably aren't using FFlogs.
The content is old, people have been farming it for months, people aren't dying to an extent that a RDM needs to help.
SilverquickThat's actually not really true,
We are talking a very miniscule difference in damage here... that means one or two cures/verraise is going to drop your damage by about that percentage, its that small.
So you would have to go through all those logs, remove any that used a vercure or verrraise, and take only those that did pure DPS as an average.
So of your average of parces... how many are after the buffs of 5.1? Then how many of those never used a Vercure or Verraise? Its going to be a very small pool that's left.

Still missing any of the claimed "Silverquick thinks he's uber" talk here...

In fact every one of these has been an honest conversation up to this point and legitimate questions and points I'd been making.

[Gruntler]

Yeah I actually do forsee the single target getting reduced a little. While I'm not going to give the specific tactics, you can pull off a surprising amount of single target DPS as RDM now if you know how to do it.

Just to be clear--this is a hard claim. This is an attempt to present a conclusion, then what one perceives to be the facts that lead to that conclusion.

The issue, Silverquick, is that your claim is not supported. The evidence we have does not support this claim, and thus the onus is on you to support this claim if you want your conclusion to be taken with anything more than a grain of salt.

The only evidence we could use for your claim, would be your logs; we literally have no other way of checking this thing that you said. That's why your performance matters. When you claim that 'Red Mage can do a surprising amount of dps' we want to see evidence of that claim; both as it contradicts our own evidence, but also, if there's a way to make RDM perform better than we expect we sincerely would like to do it!

So, what we're doing, patiently, is waiting for you to advance this conversation. What is 'surprising' dps to you? What measure do you consider to be that 'surprising' amount, in your own words?

There's a reason why I'm asking you to quantify this--I want to see what you think 'RDM performing well' looks like, because to use one log that puts you unfavorably is not fair to you, and it is not putting your position in the most favorable light.

However, putting your position in its most favorably light is your job, not ours. It's up to you to advance this conversation, and at this point, that means you're going to have to provide evidence--a rotation, a declaration of what 'good dps is'.

[BloodRubyXII]

I simply do not and have never spent the majority of my time DPSing in a Raid. I'm doing one of three things, my time is divided between DPSing, Healing, and Raising.

Exactly, so you're not playing RDM at the level relative to my OP in the first place, so why are you even here? Serious question. One of your first comments was "I compete with Summoners" when you clearly do not - in fact you don't even compete with Healers, in a static anyone would be better off bringing a third healer than you - to do the exact same job you're currently doing which the job is not designed to do at the extent you've been doing it; and they'd contribute more RDPS in the process too. You play the job at a less than casual level, like we're talking borderline freestyle Samurai level, you have bad gear, your melds are wrong and you're honestly wondering why your claims are generally seen as unsubstantiated. This is with us taking external logs entirely out of the equation to make the discussion as "fair" and as "inclusive" to you as possible.

[Neela]

check.mate

[ForteNightshade]

SilverquickThat's actually not really true,
We are talking a very miniscule difference in damage here... that means one or two cures/verraise is going to drop your damage by about that percentage, its that small.
So you would have to go through all those logs, remove any that used a vercure or verrraise, and take only those that did pure DPS as an average.
So of your average of parces... how many are after the buffs of 5.1? Then how many of those never used a Vercure or Verraise? Its going to be a very small pool that's left.

People aren't arguing about your supposed claims of being uber. They're pointing out the flaw in your logic.

You keep going back to this idea RDMs have to do xyz, which simply isn't true in an optimized setting. Not only that but you're significantly underestimating how much of a loss using Vercure and Verraise are. Regardless, you can set the percentage parameters on FFlogs to 95%. This will only include the best players on each respective job. You'll see Red Mage lags behind Summoner by a massive margin. Saying you don't put stock into this is dismissing basic math.

In other words, you're wrong.

[Xephna]

I applaud the patience of everyone trying to explain things to silverquick, but i think it's time to let go lol. He doesn't understand a thing you guys are saying, and is just harping on people attacking him.