Patch 5.10 Current state of physical range jobs' balance is unfair.

[Akiudo]

Bumping up this thread to talk about Ultimate.

Summoner is completely broken, no nerf for Ultimate was easily predictable that the job would be insane, almost required.
Bard and Dancer are still low but performs much better, the gap isn't as big as before.

But you know what I'm going to talk about, the Machinist.

SE, if you don't want to balance this job or straight up don't care about it, please officially announce it.
Not enough adds to deal enough damages with AoEs, Bio Blaster is barely worth on 2 target. 20 potency bonus, yay.

MCH is so underwhelming in TEA and it's the hardest content, the fact that they put 2 targets on more than half on the fight really helped. BRD, DNC and MCH can all tackle the mechanics...
But BRD is so above against two targets, so much it puts it near the SMN and has Minne's Nature to help the healer to deal with the 35k attacks.

MCH is the best of the worst jobs until you had a second target and it deals less damage than the utility jobs.

considering its very doubtfull the next raid tier will be full of fights (or even have any fight at all) with 2 adds for half the fight i would say the fact that bard and to a lesser extent dancer get more out of this than mch is more like a consolation price... not that i disagree with what yu're saying, mch in this case goes from best of the worst to simply worst yes, but as its doubtfull there will be any big changes until 5.2 at least we should really look more towards the future, and in that future that gap between all physical ranges and the rest thats still there in fact hasn't closed by even one centimeter.

what i mean to say with this is not "oh, just live with being the absolute worst in one piece of content" but "lets be real here, mch wouldn't be any better than it currently is if it was just a single target fight, just that the other 2 physical ranged would suck even harder than mch does right now" , the role as a whole needs a serious buff, the fact that the "strongest" of the physical ranged is still so very obviously weaker than the rest even in whats the most mechanic heavy fight off the addon should be prove enough of that.

the fact that brd and dancer actually overtake mch there doesn't really change that they are generally weaker than mch, for that to be the case having a fight with a similiar add dynamic would at least need to be something that can be assumed will happen in half the fights, and going back the last 3 raid tiers its more likely to happen exactly never again, mch is the strongest physical ranged unless the fight is catering to the strengths of the other 2 to a almost comical degree, and it still sucks... compared to every other class

[Myon88]

Something to remember is that in TEA, the situations where you have 2-target scenarios all occur very early in the easy parts of the fight. This is different from ucob where the sole multitarget scenario (adds) occurs late in the fight in a situation with higher stakes.

Jobs like smn/brd being strong in p1 and p2 of TEA isn't a huge deal because those are easy phases that most groups are gonna prog past quickly (and their dps checks aren't even that high anyway). Wiping in ucob adds because your group had mch + rdm instead of brd + smn was a super feelsbad situation, wiping for the same reason in the brute justice/cruise chaser phase is more like "Eh, we'll be farming this phase in a couple of days anyway".

And also, when you get to perfect alex, the only phase in TEA where there is a somewhat serious dps check, machinist suddenly gains an advantage because unlike bard, its job design allows it to hoard resources and enter the phase with full heat and battery. If you look up peoples' performances in TEA and select only the end portion of the graph that covers the perfect alex phase, I think you'll find that mch still has an rdps advantage over the other ranged for this reason.

Jobs with the ability to 'flex' and disjoint their resources like this have advantages that jobs with more straightforward rotations don't have, and this is one of them. I agree the ranged role as a whole needs a lot of help, but I wouldn't be so quick to count machinist out of the running in TEA compared to the other ranged.

It's why I'm not too worried about summoner being 'broken' in TEA too, because it's not. Jobs like bard or summoner may look higher overall, but only because a lot of that damage is literally padding on irrelevant phases. Now that I've cleared the fight myself, I can confidently say good black mages have nothing to fear from summoners. Compared to past ultimates (especially ucob), they have never designed a fight as raise-unfriendly as this one. If they want to marginalize raise, clearly they can do it if they want to. The vast majority of the time if someone dies it's a wipe whether you have a raise or not, which just leaves dps where blm is still #1.

[Gruntler]

Jobs like smn/brd being strong in p1 and p2 of TEA isn't a huge deal because those are easy phases that most groups are gonna prog past quickly (and their dps checks aren't even that high anyway).

Your argument is true if, and only if, Summoner was lagging behind in single target fights as well.

It is not.

Thus your argument is invalid. BLM is, because of all the jobs being buffed, no longer the DPS king. It's behind all the melee, and behind summoner on every single target fight, including fights it should have the movement completely mastered on.

[Myon88]

You're wrong on two counts.

BLM is still #1 rdps in single target scenarios, if you're not seeing that, you're not looking at the data properly.

Even if you bought into the argument that summoner was trouncing blm in dps, why's that an issue? They don't play the same role in raids at all. Blms aren't worried about healers doing more damage, because you aren't gonna replace a healer with a blm. Likewise, no sane group will replace their rez caster with a blm when they can replace a melee for it instead (see: TEA groups now including the one that got world first).

The 'rez caster' role is basically its own exclusive slot that only red mage and summoner compete over. If there is one job that has a legitimate right to complain about summoner, it's red mage and whether verraise is a fair trade off for their lower dps. And frankly I am all for red mage seeing buffs. They - and the ranged, as can be seen from this thread - need a little bit more help if they're to catch up to the rest of the jobs right now.

[Kabooa]

You're wrong on two counts.

We must be looking at different datasets. Looks like Samurai and Monk are shoulder to shoulder if not higher, Summoner winning out here and there, for Void, Levi, and Titan. Not counting TEA and Eden Prime, since you stipulated single target.

In Summoner's current state, Dancer and Bard should be even, Machinist should be higher.

[Myon88]

Yes, you might be neglecting to include pre-5.1 performances, or looking too far down the leaderboard - at the 95th instead of the 99th percentile level for instance. Blm continues to monopolize the top ranks on voidwalker, leviathan, and titan so I fail to see the issue here w.r.t summoner.

I am seeing a smattering of monks and samurais among the sea of purple in the top ranks, they're not #1 like blm, but they're respectably close. This is an interesting development because blm and the 4 melees belong in the same bloc and compete over the same raid spots. As I've said, it's all about blm vs the 4 melees, not blm vs rdm/smn.

And well, I'm not a melee dps expert so I'm not qualified to pass judgment on this state of affairs. How does the burden of having to hardcast as blm stack up against the melee constraints the melee jobs have? Who knows, not me that's for sure. They've all certainly enjoyed waving those around as justification for their output vs the ranged, so it's nice to see them pitted against each other for a change. I look forward to seeing the blms and sams duke it out and try to justify their slice of the pie.

[MOZZYSTAR]

This is a little off topic, but after reading some comments it came to mind and I don't really think it's worth making a new thread for: why do bard's songs affect its DPS output? (Or Phys. ranged DPS in general have so low DPS?) For bards, their songs don't affect them either in party or solo. To me (who knows nothing of stats, mind you), it seems a little weird that they would "punish" bard's DPS for having songs that only affects others by giving them lower DPS. Intuitively, shouldn't they have the same DPS rate as any other class seeing as their songs don't enhance their own DPS output? (Sorry if this is a "dumb" question)

[Sunako]

This is a little off topic, but after reading some comments it came to mind and I don't really think it's worth making a new thread for: why do bard's songs affect its DPS output? (Or Phys. ranged DPS in general have so low DPS?) For bards, their songs don't affect them either in party or solo. To me (who knows nothing of stats, mind you), it seems a little weird that they would "punish" bard's DPS for having songs that only affects others by giving them lower DPS. Intuitively, shouldn't they have the same DPS rate as any other class seeing as their songs don't enhance their own DPS output? (Sorry if this is a "dumb" question)

Because the game is balanced around 8 man raid content. If bard can do 13k dps and songs bring 1k dps to the party, mch need to do 14k dps in that case. Self buffs do not count as utility.

[Shurrikhan]

Because the game is balanced around 8 man raid content. If bard can do 13k dps and songs bring 1k dps to the party, mch need to do 14k dps in that case.

But MCH does, in itself, more than Bard does between all its personal damage and raid contribution in 8-mans combined...

[Akiudo]

But MCH does, in itself, more than Bard does between all its personal damage and raid contribution in 8-mans combined...

which just shows that bard is undertuned compared to mch, the point sunako was explaining still stands as far as explaining what was asked is concerned.